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EXTREME!! macro

Macro lenslens macro

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#1 Neirin Jones

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Posted 22 March 2016 - 04:28 PM

Hello,

 

I have attached some photos of the kind of images I would like to shoot. I have researched about the kind of stages, lights etc, I might need. But it is hard to wade through advice on this subject online as it is overwhelmingly stacked towards stills work and image stacking - to achieve a decent depth of field (also how these images were achieved).

 

But I want to shoot this kind of detail and depth with a video camera - alexa / epic etc...

 

So - what PL kind of lenses / diaopters / tubes do I need to get this kind of magnification? Is working with normal diopters even possible to get this extreme detail?

 

Are there any PL mount lenses out there that can achieve this level of detail?

 

Anyone who knows a bit about this kind of extreme Macro would appreciate any advice.

 

ant.jpg

 


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#2 Dom Jaeger

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Posted 22 March 2016 - 08:05 PM

Well, if we assume the actual ant's head is about 1mm long, and the sensor is S35 sized so that the image size of the head is about 10mm long, you have a magnification ratio of 10:1 which is extreme macro.

 

Most PL macro lenses can't produce higher magnification ratios than 1:1, not even specialty probe/borescope lens systems like the T-Rex or Revolution. The high-end 100mm and 200mm Arri Macros and the 100mm Master Macro are all 1:1 limited.

 

Panavision have a 90mm macro that gets past 1:1, otherwise there are PL mount shift/tilt lenses that can be extended with bellows to achieve very high magnifications, or you can reverse a wide angle lens. There is a Canon EF mount macro that goes to 5x magnification or 10x with an extender:

https://en.wikipedia....8_1–5x_Macro

 

The problem with such high magnification is that your depth of field is extremely shallow, the posted photo was very likely taken with multiple images of different focus planes stacked together to create the illusion of more depth. Even stopped right down the depth of field is still very shallow.

 

You also need a ton of light, since the more macro you go the more light is lost, at 1:1 your effective aperture is already 2 stops slower. At 10x an aperture of f/2.8 effectively becomes about T 32.


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#3 Neirin Jones

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 10:16 AM

Hi Dom,

 

Thanks for this. This is exactly the problem I'm having. There is simply no lens I can find, that will give the combination of depth of field you need for film work with the magnification ratio 10:1

 

 

Would the PL mount shift / tilt lens extended with bellows afford me some more depth of field and achieve a 10:1 magnification ratio, Or close?

 

I think Arri have a shift / tilt bellows system.


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#4 dan kessler

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 10:31 AM

If you're not acquainted with view camera adjustments,
do a little research to find out what lens swings/tilts do.

Technically, you're not increasing the depth of field,
but you are angling the plane of sharp focus.
So, it is possible to bring more of the subject into focus
if you can align it with that plane.
 


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#5 Neirin Jones

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 10:59 AM

Hi Dan,

 

 

I am aware of the features of swing / tilt, no expert but I understand how they work to achieve an angled plane of focus. I can see how this could be useful but my question was more about the section of your first reply where you mentioned ........

 

 

there are PL mount shift/tilt lenses that can be extended with bellows to achieve very high magnifications,

 

 

So I am assuming because of the bellows you have ability to distance your lens from your sensor - creating the opportunity for high levels of magnification?

 

If i use a shift / tilt PL mount system, like the Arri, will I be able to achieve a magnification of 10:1 or close? 

 

If so is it possible to maintain a workable depth of field - lets say 1-2 mm - working on a shot like my example of the 1mm ants head? Assuming the quantity of light needed for this was made available.

 

 

Thanks.


Edited by Neirin Jones, 23 March 2016 - 11:02 AM.

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#6 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 12:21 PM

If you're shooting something that's basically still-- which it would be-- and though time consuming-- could you not output all the frames as image files and then focus stack them with a regular macro-lens in order to get it all in focus?

 

Granted, you're talking a ton of data, and a bit of a PITA; but that's basically the only way I could think to get a non-tilt-shift DoF look with "deep" [for macro] DoF at large magnification.


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#7 Simon Wyss

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 01:11 PM

You’re not about macro but microcinematography.

 

You say video, so it’s also about motion, ahem, motion pictures.

What parameters are there to consider?

 

  • Sensitivity setting
  • Frame rate for exposure time
  • Lens stops
  • Lighting
  • Image character, how much detail is needed vs. silhouettes or grey-in-grey blur
  • Possibilities of space restriction, i. e. animal between glass panes or in a cuvette

 

One thing is certain, you’ll never get such images as the photograph shown. Not to

discourage, only for reference

 

Maybe a stereo microscope will help you some. Transparent animals might become your favourites. A black ant promises nothing but a black silhouette. Else you simply burn the animal to death with the amount of light needed.


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#8 Neirin Jones

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:24 PM

Hey guys, thanks for all the feedback.
 
So - maybe I should resign myself to the fact that there is not a lens that can achieve the results of my first reference without stacking. In my research I have found this ref, Depth of field is shallow but workable, light source isn't killing any bugs either.  The very first frame at 00:01(also frames 01:04 + 01:31) is more or less what I'm after, although ideally closer than this even and with more depth of field.
 
https://vimeo.com/23262142
 
This has been done with a Canon 7D and 65mm MP-E and Canon 100mm f/2.8. If this is the best tools out there I will go and source a 65mm MP-E, I had expected there to be other options from the film industry that would have provided an even more sophisticated lens systems, but perhaps that just doesn't exist??
 
Thanks for all the comments. Please let me know if there are any other solutions.

 

Fly2.jpeg bee2.jpeg bee.jpeg


Edited by Neirin Jones, 23 March 2016 - 03:27 PM.

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#9 Simon Wyss

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 09:57 AM

Bellows macro equipment lets you pull out the lens continuously. Novoflex is one such product.


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#10 aapo lettinen

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:48 PM

You can use for example m42 to pl or t-mount to pl adapter, attach it to bellows and then attach the taking lens mount's adapter to the other end with available tools, even glue or tape will work. You can also use microscope lenses if you have tons of light. You may want to use longer focal lenght lens or physically small lens to make the shooting easier and to avoid shadows.
You could maybe theoretically use some pl lenses with lots of extension tubes but it is extremely unpractical because of the large barrels and front elements. I use el-nikkors for this kind of stuff though usually more like 1x -4x macr. Attached with m39 to m42 adapter to m42 bellows which is attached to m42 to t-mount adapter which has t-mount to pl adapter on it. But i think the microscope lenses would maybe work better with 10x if you have, again, enermous amount of light. Your ant may catch fire in the process, i hope peta wont mind :P
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