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Beginner Needs Your Help - 16mm Film For An Old 2-Edge Perforation Movie Camera


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#1 Dale Hammond

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 03:25 PM

I'm looking for the type of B&W film I need, and a source for that film (hopefully the lowest cost source).

 

I posted below that I just purchased an old 1931 VITASCOPE 16mm Hand Crank Movie Camera.

 

This is a very simple 16mm camera that uses 2-sided B&W 16mm film. 

 

I need to find a source for this film.

 

Also, I want a film type I can develop myself at home and run on a vintage 16mm movie projector.

 

Your help is greatly appreciatedAvitaCam.JPG .

Thanks


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#2 David Cunningham

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 01:04 PM

Unfortunately it is going to be very hard to find 2R (thats the designation you want) 16mm film.  Your best bet would be old Plus-X stock off eBay.  In fact, even more than 2R you need 2R-2994 (the camera stock).

 

The only 2R camera stock still produced by Kodak is 7219 Vision3 500T and it's special order only with minimum quantities.

 

Your only source for new stock would be someone with a perforating machine.  I'm not sure there is anyone out there.

 

This is some old Plus-X 2R 2994 B&W negative film on eBay:

 

http://www.ebay.com/...UIAAOSw6wRXAuFp

 

http://www.ebay.com/...DwAAOSwG-1Wyicp

 

As long as they were decently stored the second listing should definitely be good.  It's dated 2002 which means it was from after that.  Even if it was room temp stored it should still give you a "decent" image.  If it was freezer stored, it will be almost like new.

 

You might also try:

 

http://www.filmemporium.com/

 

and

 

http://www.reelgoodfilm.com/

 

Both sell NOS, short ends and recans and likely sometimes get 2R stuff.

 

Good luck!

 

Dave


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#3 Dale Hammond

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 01:26 PM

Unfortunately it is going to be very hard to find 2R (thats the designation you want) 16mm film.  Your best bet would be old Plus-X stock off eBay.  In fact, even more than 2R you need 2R-2994 (the camera stock).

 

The only 2R camera stock still produced by Kodak is 7219 Vision3 500T and it's special order only with minimum quantities.

 

Your only source for new stock would be someone with a perforating machine.  I'm not sure there is anyone out there.

 

This is some old Plus-X 2R 2994 B&W negative film on eBay:

 

http://www.ebay.com/...UIAAOSw6wRXAuFp

 

http://www.ebay.com/...DwAAOSwG-1Wyicp

 

As long as they were decently stored the second listing should definitely be good.  It's dated 2002 which means it was from after that.  Even if it was room temp stored it should still give you a "decent" image.  If it was freezer stored, it will be almost like new.

 

You might also try:

 

http://www.filmemporium.com/

 

and

 

http://www.reelgoodfilm.com/

 

Both sell NOS, short ends and recans and likely sometimes get 2R stuff.

 

Good luck!

 

Dave

 

Thanks a lot, Dave. My camera arrived today and looks great.

 

I'm also going to try double 8mm film as I've had several people tell me it will work. One just has to be careful treading it due to more perforations. I lined it up with old 2R 16mm stock and the holes line up and the width is identical. Double 8 should work. We'll see. 


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#4 aapo lettinen

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 02:11 PM

you can get fresh Orwo and Fomapan with 2R perfs


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#5 Dom Jaeger

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 05:49 PM

The other possibilty is to remove the sprocket roller and turn down in a lathe (or file off) the upper teeth, so that the camera can use 1R stock. You could file them down in situ but metal filings and camera gears don't mix very well. ;) Turning them down in a lathe is the best option as it will leave a nice smooth surface on the roller edge.

 

Check that the pulldown claw is on the bottom edge of the gate (ie away from the door side), otherwise it might get complicated. (If the claw is on the door side edge you'd then need to remove the bottom row of sprocket teeth and respool every roll of 1R film to run backwards in the camera). 


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#6 Charlie Peich

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 07:32 PM

That camera appeared in 1931. It was considered a toy back then. It takes 50 foot spools, not 100 ft spools. The spool holes and the inside hub dimensions on the 50 spool are identical to the 100 foot ones, or the Kodak R-90 spool of today. If you get 100ft loads of film, you'll have to wind them down to the  50 ft spool. Double 8 spools will not fit on the round feed spindle, or the squared to round take up spindle.

 

Where do you get 50ft 16mm spools? I don't know. Kodak stopped providing 50 ft spools in the '60s, maybe into the early 70s, my guess. I've once saw a 50ft spool, but that was a long time ago when I was 1st starting out. Good luck finding those today!!

 

Dom, as for the pull down claw, according to a page from the instruction manual, it is in the correct position for pulling single perf film. The claw appears to be 2 pins on top of each other, away from the door, not like the very early 2 pin B&H 70 pull down assembly.

 

How does one hold this camera and crank it? Maybe that was it's demise......

 

The Vitascope camera was introduced in April, 1931. There was a P.R. piece about it printed in the April, 1931 issue of "Movie Makers" magazine, a magazine for the 'Home Movie' enthusiast........

 

moviemakers06amat_0224-01_zpsfg5tdntd.jp

moviemakers06amat_0224-02_zpstzz7jyac.jp

 

Vol 6 Movie Makers - April 1931 page 208

 

 

Then in May, Vitascope ran a full page ad for the system.....

 

moviemakers06amat_0295-01_zps8yumfpog.jp

 

Vol 6 Movie Makers - May 1931 page 229

 

Hmmmmm, a Wollensak lens.

 

You can read the 1931 Movie Makers magazines here. Interesting ads and articles about early movie productions and equipment.....

https://archive.org/...viemakers06amat

 

Vitascope ran ads thru the end of the year, then stopped by Jan 1932. I saw no mention of Vitascope after that. Also, in the middle of 1932 8mm (double 8) started appearing. 

 

A group shot of early 16mm home movie cameras. You can see that the Vitascope is somewhat smaller than the big boys that took 100 ft loads. Oh, the big boys had spring drives.

 

35580021_1_x_zpszp4bl58c.jpg

 

 

 

I found one page of the instruction manual (amazing) in an article about early filmmaking. Not very good quality, but it does describe loading of the camera and shows an illustration of the inside of the camera.  Sheesh, only 1 page of the manual, so close.........

 

http://cinema.usc.ed...s/098/15847.pdf

 

It also states that the 50 foot spool only had 30 feet of film on it. The rest of the 50 ft must have been taken up by 16mm perforated opaque paper leader and trailer used to protect the film from exposure to light when loading and unloading. Anyone know why this was done? I do. :-) .....Simon?

 

Charlie

 

(It was Hand Cranking that killed the beast!)


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#7 Dale Hammond

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 10:12 PM

That camera appeared in 1931. It was considered a toy back then. It takes 50 foot spools, not 100 ft spools. The spool holes and the inside hub dimensions on the 50 spool are identical to the 100 foot ones, or the Kodak R-90 spool of today. If you get 100ft loads of film, you'll have to wind them down to the  50 ft spool. Double 8 spools will not fit on the round feed spindle, or the squared to round take up spindle.

 

Where do you get 50ft 16mm spools? I don't know. Kodak stopped providing 50 ft spools in the '60s, maybe into the early 70s, my guess. I've once saw a 50ft spool, but that was a long time ago when I was 1st starting out. Good luck finding those today!!

 

Dom, as for the pull down claw, according to a page from the instruction manual, it is in the correct position for pulling single perf film. The claw appears to be 2 pins on top of each other, away from the door, not like the very early 2 pin B&H 70 pull down assembly.

 

How does one hold this camera and crank it? Maybe that was it's demise......

 

The Vitascope camera was introduced in April, 1931. There was a P.R. piece about it printed in the April, 1931 issue of "Movie Makers" magazine, a magazine for the 'Home Movie' enthusiast........

 

moviemakers06amat_0224-01_zpsfg5tdntd.jp

moviemakers06amat_0224-02_zpstzz7jyac.jp

 

Vol 6 Movie Makers - April 1931 page 208

 

 

Then in May, Vitascope ran a full page ad for the system.....

 

moviemakers06amat_0295-01_zps8yumfpog.jp

 

Vol 6 Movie Makers - May 1931 page 229

 

Hmmmmm, a Wollensak lens.

 

You can read the 1931 Movie Makers magazines here. Interesting ads and articles about early movie productions and equipment.....

https://archive.org/...viemakers06amat

 

Vitascope ran ads thru the end of the year, then stopped by Jan 1932. I saw no mention of Vitascope after that. Also, in the middle of 1932 8mm (double 8) started appearing. 

 

A group shot of early 16mm home movie cameras. You can see that the Vitascope is somewhat smaller than the big boys that took 100 ft loads. Oh, the big boys had spring drives.

 

35580021_1_x_zpszp4bl58c.jpg

 

 

 

I found one page of the instruction manual (amazing) in an article about early filmmaking. Not very good quality, but it does describe loading of the camera and shows an illustration of the inside of the camera.  Sheesh, only 1 page of the manual, so close.........

 

http://cinema.usc.ed...s/098/15847.pdf

 

It also states that the 50 foot spool only had 30 feet of film on it. The rest of the 50 ft must have been taken up by 16mm perforated opaque paper leader and trailer used to protect the film from exposure to light when loading and unloading. Anyone know why this was done? I do. :-) .....Simon?

 

Charlie

 

(It was Hand Cranking that killed the beast!)

 

 

WOW! This is stupendous, thanks!

 

I knew I'd have to transfer double 8 to the proper spool. Thanks for the tip on the spool needed.

 

I plan to use the camera on a vintage wooden tripod.

 

The color of my example is a very dark green hammered look. It's missing some paint and about 40% of the decal. But otherwise looks functional.  


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#8 Dom Jaeger

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 05:11 AM

Dom, as for the pull down claw, according to a page from the instruction manual, it is in the correct position for pulling single perf film. The claw appears to be 2 pins on top of each other, away from the door, not like the very early 2 pin B&H 70 pull down assembly.

 

Thanks Charlie! I have a beautiful 1930's Zeiss Ikon Movikon 16 that also has the claw on the wrong side. 

 

The Vitascope really was a cheap sardine can of a camera, precurser to the little Univex 8mm ones. I notice it has a fixed focus, fixed aperture lens - I guess you could crank faster or slower to change the exposure..  ;)

 

Nice collection of early 16mm cameras! 


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#9 Mark Dunn

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 05:44 AM

The 50' 16mm. spool certainly isn't listed in my 1980 Kodak cinematographer's guide.


Edited by Mark Dunn, 08 April 2016 - 05:45 AM.

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#10 Dale Hammond

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 06:26 AM

One of the things I like most about my Vitascope is the fact it is cheaply made. I wanted that very old looking effect to the film. I plan to experiment with all types of film from new to very old expired. 


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