Jump to content




Photo

7D Mark II - Recording RAW from HDMI

7d Mark II HDMI RAW External Recorder Magic Lantern

  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 Devin Walter

Devin Walter
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Student
  • Arizona

Posted 07 April 2016 - 06:32 PM

I had been using a Canon t5i for years and was pretty disappointed in it. I had sworn off DSLRs for video until I saw RAW footage from my friends 7D after he installed magic lantern. When i saw the specs for the 7D Mark II my mind was a buzz with the possibilities that where now open to magic lantern and i bought one thinking the ML community would be working on it... How sadly mistaking I was... The ML forums are filled with Mark II owners pleading for a Magic lantern port and ML devs basically telling them to go screw themselves...

 

Now i'm stuck with a camera only slightly better than the one I had before with the only possible saving grace being the HDMI out. Supposedly it's a clean, uncompressed 8bit out but i haven't found much information on it or people recording from it. I don't like the idea of having to spend more money to bypass Canons terrible compression but it's better than nothing. But before I do I want to make sure i'm not wasting my time.

 

Is the HDMI streem good enough to justify the cost of an external recorder. If so what recorders do you recomend?

 

I've been looking at The Blackmagic HyperDeck Shuttle 2 which records RAW and the Atomos Ninja 2 which only records ProRes.

 

Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks in advance.


  • 0




#2 Phil Rhodes

Phil Rhodes
  • Sustaining Members
  • 11223 posts
  • Other

Posted 07 April 2016 - 06:49 PM

Unfortunately, you're out of luck. The HDMI output on the 7D is notoriously covered in graphics that you can't turn off, and even if you could, the image isn't full resolution. Perhaps a bad purchasing decision there: the 7D is not a particularly good video camera.


  • 0

#3 Devin Walter

Devin Walter
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Student
  • Arizona

Posted 07 April 2016 - 06:59 PM

Unfortunately, you're out of luck. The HDMI output on the 7D is notoriously covered in graphics that you can't turn off, and even if you could, the image isn't full resolution. Perhaps a bad purchasing decision there: the 7D is not a particularly good video camera.

 

The HDMI on the Mark II is a clean, uncompressed, full HD out.


  • 0

#4 Phil Rhodes

Phil Rhodes
  • Sustaining Members
  • 11223 posts
  • Other

Posted 07 April 2016 - 07:28 PM

Oh, the mark 2? Right, yes. Pardon me, my mistake

 

Something from Atomos, then.

 

The Samurai series are very good. Spring for the SDI if you think there's any chance you might need it in future. They're great monitors, and there's good test and measurement.

 

There's also about to be an HDR option, to be released at NAB. Again, if this seems useful, get that, otherwise get one of the cheap Samurai that people will be offloading!

 

P


  • 0

#5 Devin Walter

Devin Walter
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Student
  • Arizona

Posted 07 April 2016 - 07:49 PM

Oh, the mark 2? Right, yes. Pardon me, my mistake

 

Something from Atomos, then.

 

The Samurai series are very good. Spring for the SDI if you think there's any chance you might need it in future. They're great monitors, and there's good test and measurement.

 

There's also about to be an HDR option, to be released at NAB. Again, if this seems useful, get that, otherwise get one of the cheap Samurai that people will be offloading!

 

P

 

I was looking at the Blackmagic HyperDeck Shuttle 2 because it does RAW. The Atomos only does ProRes. Any thoughts?


  • 0

#6 Phil Rhodes

Phil Rhodes
  • Sustaining Members
  • 11223 posts
  • Other

Posted 07 April 2016 - 08:11 PM

Well, it doesn't so much do raw as uncompressed, which is not quite the same thing. Personally, until you're doing advanced visual effects for the big screen, don't bust your own chops with uncompressed. It's huge, and only microscopically better.
  • 0

#7 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 6767 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:47 AM

ProRes is probably a better bet for most projects, honestly. Just wait till you start dealing with a hundred TB or raw footage--- or more-- for a project.


  • 0

#8 Devin Walter

Devin Walter
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Student
  • Arizona

Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:59 AM

ProRes is probably a better bet for most projects, honestly. Just wait till you start dealing with a hundred TB or raw footage--- or more-- for a project.

 

I've never worked with ProRes before but the examples i've seen don't look to different from H.264. That might just be the fault of the examples i've seen but the raw my friend gets from magic lantern just looks so much better and closer to film. (I'm a film photographer and hate the digital look.). I've just never seen a ProRes clip that came anywhere close to it.


  • 0

#9 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 6767 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 08 April 2016 - 02:02 AM

Then you're not looking at it properly. Pro Res and Raw both have no inherient look. And it's not about how they display-- it's about how much information they encode which you can play with later on. It's a major balancing act between efficiency and usefulness in a full production pipeline.

 

The Alexa shoots pro res-- and people say that's quite filmic


  • 0

#10 Devin Walter

Devin Walter
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Student
  • Arizona

Posted 08 April 2016 - 02:15 AM

Then you're not looking at it properly. Pro Res and Raw both have no inherient look. And it's not about how they display-- it's about how much information they encode which you can play with later on. It's a major balancing act between efficiency and usefulness in a full production pipeline.

 

The Alexa shoots pro res-- and people say that's quite filmic

 

I didn't mean to imply they have an inherent look. I meant their capabilities and the final image able to be obtained from each. I'm not necessarily apposed to ProRes, i guess i'm just looking to be convinced. The processed RAW footage i've seen and played with has a LOT of room to be able to balance highlights and shadows and bring them both out. The examples of ProRes i've seen always feel like they're bumping into the limitations of it a lot faster, especially in natural light. That's what i mean by the "look".

 

I've already been burned with my camera which i admit was  my fault for wanting to be an early adopter before i knew what was happening with magic lantern. I just want to make sure that if I drop $500 on another piece of gear to try to correct a mistake that i'm gonna be happy with it.


  • 0

#11 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 6767 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 08 April 2016 - 02:23 AM

I don't think you will be. The piece of kit really won't matter at all if you don't know yet how to use it.
And Raw for all it's benefits, has some pretty substantial drawbacks which often times outweigh it's usefulness. (same with uncompressed).

 

Bottom line is you bought a stills camera with a video function. That's wonderful, amazing, honestly, as something similar would've cost 100K plus not even 10 years ago. But it remains a stills camera with video and no amount of add ons you can buy for it will change that. Doesn't mean it can't make good images, but it does mean that comparing the video output of a 7D (or even 5D with ML) to a purpose built camera for film / video work like an Alexa or a Red is kinda silly

 

beyond that, what you're looking at in anything online, really, is a measure of the skill of the people using it and the selection bias of what they're shooting which isn't your own skill or what you'd shoot (not to mention you have to question how you're actually looking at this stuff and if you're playing with it yourself how you're working on it).

 

There is a reason why some things look better than other things-- and honestly the camera or recording codec it originated on doesn't have nearly as much to do with it as people think.


  • 0

#12 Devin Walter

Devin Walter
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Student
  • Arizona

Posted 08 April 2016 - 02:44 AM

I'm not gonna keep kicking a dead horse. I'm getting similar answers ellswear. I'll need to do more research on ProRes and the Video Assist.

 

However, I do Disagree slightly. I can almost always tell a digital movie from one shot on film. Some have fooled me but not most. But I can 100% of the time tell an SLR. No matter how well you light or work with the camera an SLR always looks junky and it's down to canon's compression. The footage I saw from my friends MagicLantern-a-fied 7D easily put it up there with any of Blackmagic's cameras and even the RED in some cases. Before we saw that we where both ready to abandon SLRs. That's the look I was after and i've just never seen it replicated in ProRes. That speaks pretty loudly to the importance of the codec. Not that RAW should be used for everything o fcourse but it goes a long way when you're trying to make a little short film look it's best.

 

I'll keep looking as I said and i am leaning toward the Video Assist. I just wish i could find something that didn't make it feel like a gamble.

 

Thanks for your input. it gave me a lot to think about.


  • 0

#13 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 6767 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 08 April 2016 - 03:01 AM

Sure it can look good. But hey, we can all say the 5dMKiii is probably the "top" for ML, the most hacked/worked on, and on their own forum they admit to it not being really stable to run into any situation:

 

http://www.magiclant...p?topic=16971.0

 

It's hard enough to work with raw from a "normal" camera like a red, on occasion, let alone when you get into some things like ArriRaw in any kind of post environment. In truth; most of the things you see shot on the Alexa on TV are recorded to ProRes-- of which there are many flavors.

And while, yes 14bit RAW is a lot of data (a lot more than pro-res) it's all about the tradeoff, 14bit raw is a lot of data.

In truth; in the years i've had my BMPocket (got it day one!) i've shot raw on it for a professional job exactly 1 time. Not that I don't like raw, it's fine, but its about more than what is just possible under the ideal circumstances of making things for yourself on your time in the film business.


  • 0

#14 Devin Walter

Devin Walter
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Student
  • Arizona

Posted 08 April 2016 - 03:14 AM

Sure it can look good. But hey, we can all say the 5dMKiii is probably the "top" for ML, the most hacked/worked on, and on their own forum they admit to it not being really stable to run into any situation:

 

http://www.magiclant...p?topic=16971.0

 

It's hard enough to work with raw from a "normal" camera like a red, on occasion, let alone when you get into some things like ArriRaw in any kind of post environment. In truth; most of the things you see shot on the Alexa on TV are recorded to ProRes-- of which there are many flavors.

And while, yes 14bit RAW is a lot of data (a lot more than pro-res) it's all about the tradeoff, 14bit raw is a lot of data.

In truth; in the years i've had my BMPocket (got it day one!) i've shot raw on it for a professional job exactly 1 time. Not that I don't like raw, it's fine, but its about more than what is just possible under the ideal circumstances of making things for yourself on your time in the film business.

 

Absolutely. But for my own projects i want the extra room to work regardless how much more time and effort it takes. I'm willing to do the extra work and just want the option. I looked into the pocket Cinema for a long time but in the end the battery life is atrocious so i would need to buy a V-mount battery and rails to hold it to compensate. Thought in hind sight i think i'd rather be doing that than looking for an external recorder. I would have needed to buy new glass or a meta bones adapter too though...


Edited by Devin Walter, 08 April 2016 - 03:17 AM.

  • 0

#15 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 6767 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 08 April 2016 - 04:06 AM

Gold mount is much better than V in terms of durability and not popping off. It's a great system for the price, though. I got lucky, I had PL glass for it ready. Even without a MB you could've done EOS Rokinons which would've given you wide options.


  • 0

#16 Adrian Maurud

Adrian Maurud

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Hamar, Norway

Posted 11 April 2016 - 05:14 AM

I am in the same situation as you. I bought a 7D2 last May and have been waiting for ML just to get shot down by the ML devs. If everything pans out I am shooting a music video with a Atomos recorder in a month or so. If you want to I can tell you how I feel about the result. Clean 8-bit 422 should hopefully make some difference...


  • 0

#17 Devin Walter

Devin Walter
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Student
  • Arizona

Posted 13 April 2016 - 12:09 PM

I am in the same situation as you. I bought a 7D2 last May and have been waiting for ML just to get shot down by the ML devs. If everything pans out I am shooting a music video with a Atomos recorder in a month or so. If you want to I can tell you how I feel about the result. Clean 8-bit 422 should hopefully make some difference...

 

Please DEFINITELY let me know how it turns out. I'll be very interested to know how much better if any ProRes is for the 7D


  • 0

#18 Adrian Maurud

Adrian Maurud

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Hamar, Norway

Posted 18 April 2016 - 03:21 AM

Weeeeeeell... I wont be able to do that... Most of my camera gear just got stolen in Amsterdam so I am jumping ship and getting myself a GH4


  • 0

#19 Wallacefilms

Wallacefilms

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Chicago

Posted 19 April 2016 - 08:04 AM

Used the 7d Mark II with the Black Magic assist over the weekend. Results at 1080p 60fps IPB were just marginal enough. I used the Vision X profile. I'm in the same boat as you. Bought a 7dMarkII hoping the guys at ML would hack it. The ProRes feature makes it just barely acceptable to me. If I had to do it all over again I would have a Sony FS5 and two A7sII instead of two C100 Mk I's and a 7DMarkII.
  • 0

#20 Devin Walter

Devin Walter
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Student
  • Arizona

Posted 19 April 2016 - 04:51 PM

Used the 7d Mark II with the Black Magic assist over the weekend. Results at 1080p 60fps IPB were just marginal enough. I used the Vision X profile. I'm in the same boat as you. Bought a 7dMarkII hoping the guys at ML would hack it. The ProRes feature makes it just barely acceptable to me. If I had to do it all over again I would have a Sony FS5 and two A7sII instead of two C100 Mk I's and a 7DMarkII.

 

That's honestly what I expected but it still sucks to hear. I wish canon would pull there heads out of there asses and realize if they put the same functionality as magic lantern in their cameras natively that they would sell a poop load of them because they would have the only SLRs that shot RAW. 


  • 0



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: 7d, Mark, II, HDMI, RAW, External, Recorder, Magic, Lantern

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Rig Wheels Passport

Glidecam

Willys Widgets

CineTape

The Slider

Paralinx LLC

CineLab

Technodolly

Aerial Filmworks

Visual Products

Tai Audio

Abel Cine

Ritter Battery

rebotnix Technologies

Pro 8mm

Zylight

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

CineLab

rebotnix Technologies

Zylight

Ritter Battery

Visual Products

Tai Audio

CineTape

Willys Widgets

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Pro 8mm

Rig Wheels Passport

Glidecam

Paralinx LLC

Technodolly

Aerial Filmworks

The Slider

Abel Cine

Broadcast Solutions Inc