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Wrong turret plate on H16?


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#1 Mark A. Rapp

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:17 AM

I bought an H16 for twenty dollars at a flea market. There is an issue, however.

 

I believe that the turret plate is from an 8mm, due to the size of the lens mounts.

 

Here are the lenses. The first one is not marked; it looks to be about 35mm. The second is a 6.5mm.

20160609_084119_zps7dzba1t3.jpg
20160609_084051_zpsresivpck.jpg
20160609_083920_zpsuqj3fqzl.jpg

Gate, lens mounts with measure and serial number:

20160609_083836_zpsxdbthjja.jpg
20160609_083742_zpsecdc4hps.jpg
20160609_083354_zpscikcegwt.jpg

16mm sprockets, body, detail on turret plate - you can see the retaining bolt has some spring peeking out (it doesnt mount flush to the plate)


20160609_083345_zpsz4xuhfrs.jpg
20160609_083241_zpscxmwzmgf.jpg
20160609_083214_zpscei94q3w.jpg
 

 

Is this the wrong lens turret? Did some jerk pull a switcheroo, haha!?

 

If these are 8mm lenses, will they cover the 16mm field?

 

In short, was this camera a production model or is it a Frankenstein.  Can I shoot with it and get a full 16mm image?

 

Will I need to replace the turret plate... and... and... and anything else. I think you all know what I'm asking here. I don't mind having a pretty piece to put on my bookshelf for $20, but I'd rather take it out and shoot with it.

 

Any help from you Bolexperts would be much appreciated. Thanks!


Edited by Mark Rapp, 09 June 2016 - 08:22 AM.

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#2 Mark Dunn

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:01 AM

You seem to have a mix of mounts. The one with the tape is indeed a D-mount 5/8" for 8mm., but the one at the top right seems to be a dual mount, with a C on the outside and a D inside. Odd.

The flange focal depths are different so the two are not interchangeable, apart possibly from the dual mount. I don't know about coverage . 6.5 is about right for a medium wide-angle for 8mm, 12.5 for 16. The top lens is marked, 1 1/2", about 38mm.


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#3 Mark A. Rapp

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:16 AM

Mark, thanks for the reply. Here's another shot of the mounts. They're all the same size, and the viewfinder position does have the smaller mount inside. Anyone know why? Is it for a dedicated viewfinder attachment, or a lens adapter?

 

So, in short: I'm pizzled and I can't shoot with this camera, correct?

 

Also, I tried running single perf 16mm film through it. It freezes up soon after passing through the gate. Is that because there are two rows of sprockets?

 


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#4 Mark A. Rapp

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:23 AM

20160609_083755_zpsekualljd.jpg


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#5 Mark Dunn

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:30 AM

You can only run double-perf.


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#6 Robert Ditto

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:05 AM

Hello Mark,

What you have is an early "H8" not an "H16". The H8 camera uses Regular 8mm film which is a "Double Run" film. The film itself is 16mm wide because you shoot the 100ft load once and the turn the "exposed" take up reel over and shoot it again on the other half of the film. You then send off the film and after it is developed they slit the film down the middle effectively giving you 200ft of film for projection or digital scan.

The topmost lenses mount has the smaller threaded hole just under the turret plate because this is the "Turret Locking Plug" location. There is a special turret cap that has deeper threads on it to Lock the turret in to place and help keep the turret plate from flexing with heavy lenses from the day.

You need to run reg 8 film only in this camera, the 16mm may damage some of the more sensitive parts at the film gate/film movement mechanism area.

Also, your camera might need to be serviced if it is running loudly or sluggishly.

I can do this service for you fairly cheaply if you are interested. Just PM me in here and I can give you the details.

Sincerely, Respectfully,

Robert M. Ditto
Director of Photography
Infinity Focus Pictures
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#7 Mark Dunn

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:08 AM

Crumbs, that never occurred to me. OP said 16mm. so I believed him. They appear about the same size so no clues there.


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#8 Robert Ditto

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:18 AM

Yes, people looking to make a buck and who don't know the history see the 16mm sprocket width and just assume it is a 16mm camera.

To someone with a little bit of experience the tell~tale sign is the film gate size and the lens mount size, the smaller diameter "D" mount is easier to spot if you have seen the larger "C" mount used on 16mm. The gate is easy to spot in a similar fashion, once you've seen the 16mm gate there is no question on the differences.

$20 for this camera was a bargain though. If you would rather have a good serviced H16 to shoot with, we could talk about a trade.

Sincerely, Respectfully,

Robert
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#9 Mark Dunn

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:38 AM

So does the H8 have the 16mm. sprocket pitch? The teeth seem a long way apart, or is that an optical illusion?


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#10 Robert Ditto

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:46 AM

A little of both, but not really.

Let me explain, the sprocket teeth on the H8 and the H16 are spaced wider than a single frame as they are intended for film transport and guidance only, the claw at the film gate itself is where it becomes a 1:1 ratio of using each perf on the film to frame for image Acquisition. So the sprocket teeth seem wider in both models because they are in relation to film types thread pitch.

Sincerely, Respectfully,

Robert
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#11 Mark A. Rapp

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 11:00 AM

Robert, you are the man! And thanks, Mark. I appreciate the input; If I'd have known more about the camera I wouldn't have fed you bad information.

 

Robert, I've never even heard of that process for shooting, flipping, processing and splitting. Pretty cool. Really cool, actually, except, does anyone still sell sell the film and execute that type of processing?

 

Do you have any idea of the designation of the camera? I'd like to do some research on it.


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#12 Robert Ditto

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 11:38 AM

The official designation is "H8". To further fine tune your research, you have an Early H8 that has the earlier claw mechanism and the sprocket teeth are a little more rounded in their design. Also, your 100ft load spindles are completely round rather than the more normal round with a square at the base. You can take the serial number as shown in your pictures and get a full breakdown of your camera and it's relative specs at http://www.bolexcollector.com.

A couple of things to note. The early round spindles use a different daylight real than more modern versions and can be difficult to source at times. And, your lenses are some of the better lenses that were available for those cameras so unless you are trading up, hold on to the because as I've said, $20 was a bargain. The first photo of the two chrome lenses are going for about $100 each on eBay these days with adapters that allow their use on modern digital camera with astounding image results.

The reg 8mm film is still available today and processing as well, just not as common as Super 8mm and up.

Here is one, http://www.cinelab.com.

But yes, it was a very common method which pre-dated the Super 8mm cartridge format of film making. Reg 8, and Double Run 8, and Double 8, are all used for the same 8mm film and it's processes. But that is why they call the spools you load the film onto "Daylight reels" because once you've exposed the first half, the you turn it over in full daylight, although, I would recommend a darker area, and the black sides of the reel protect all but about the first three outer layers of the exposed film. Which you would be damaging during the rethreaded process anyway.

I actually to and H8 "S" and mounted a Bolex 400ft external Magazine so when I shoot with it, I get roughly the same amount of footage as someone with 1000ft of 16mm.

It is still a viable format for the average filmmaker and there are whole clubs and websites devoted to the format, there are also so mods that can be done like Double Super 8mm that widens the gate to super8 aspect, and still uses the double run method of capture, also, one of my dear Friends whose birthday just happens to be today, worked out a system called "UltraPan 8" and has an aspect ration wider than Panavision. He is a member here as well, His name is Nick Kovats.

Let me know if there is anything else I can do. Always good to see a new Bolex user.

I have shot ARRI, Anton, Eclair, and Bolex to name a few. And, my favorite will always be the Bolex.

I shoot film exclusively and with the Bolex cameras, if some happens on set or on a shoot, I can completely tear one down and rebuild it on location and be back up and running in no time.

That is a fine piece you have there so make sure you know what you have if you ever trade or sell it.

Sincerely, Respectfully,

Robert
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#13 Heikki Repo

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 12:14 PM

There's even Vision3 50D negative film available in 2x8mm: http://toeppenfilm.com/


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#14 Simon Wyss

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 12:43 PM

That is a Paillard-Bolex H-8, everything original. As Robert explained, there is a smaller thread in the solid front behind the lens mounting thread in the swivelling plate to either accept a cap screw if one wants to protect the critical focus prism or for the turret locking screw.

 

Sprocket drums are identical with the H-16 ones but the gearing ratio would be different.

 

Something useful would now be a rackover. With it you have full control of frame and focus down to until the object touches the lens. The only little obstacle is that you won’t easily find D-mount extension tubes. But theoretically you could flip a short-built lens, say a triplet, screw it on with its filter thread and plunge into macro-micro cinematography.

 

I’m right now having this issue with a Bell & Howell 134 T.


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