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Expired 16mm Kodak E 100D - how to expose?

Ektachrome 100D 16mm reversal exposure

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#1 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 08:54 PM

Hi all,

 

Just a question:

 

WeIl I still have three unopened 100ft rolls of 16mm Kodak Ektachrome 100D in my freezer. Love that film stock! Got it still at reasonable prices a few months back. One is © 2001 and two are © 2009. No exp. date.

 

I'm planning on using one roll (the 2009 stock) for shooting our band during sound check on stage, run and gun style (outside, sunlight - very likely the weather will be clear skies).

 

The film stock seems to have been stored properly. Still: my Q: should I compensate for film speed (sensitivity) loss? If it was neg, I'd simply rate the 2009 stock about 70-80ASA and the 2001 stock about 50 or even lower. Kind of afraid to blow my highlights, since it is reversal, but underexposed it would look very grainy (at the moment I only can afford a 2K scan with the Muller HD at Gauge Film, UK. They always do a really great job, maintaining the grain structure and look, but compensating in post for wrong exposure only goes so far). The footage will be Super 16mm and meant to be used for 1080p uploads (YouTube, Vimeo).

 

Any tips highly appreciated!

 

Thanks!

Cheers,

Christian


Edited by Christian Schonberger, 11 June 2016 - 08:57 PM.

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#2 John Salim

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 05:59 AM

Expose this stock at 100 ISO.

If it's been cold stored, it should still be fine - maybe a slight magenta bias perhaps.

 

If it were colour negative, then a little over-exposure wouldn't do any harm, but not with colour reversal !

 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Ektachrome 100D wasn't around in 2001..... maybe someone can correct me.

 

When processed the edge printing will reveal the date of manufacture.

 

 

Cheers,

John S


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#3 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:44 AM

John,

 

Thanks for the reply and information. The "© 2001" very likely doesn't refer to the actual year of production.

A slight (!) magenta bias should be O.K. since fresh E 100D seems to have a slight bias towards green-yellow. Seen everything from recent HD scans to video-taped from projection on YouTube and Vimeo: always the same slight green-yellow bias (it's very pleasant though). So that's almost exactly the complementary color. Nothing that couldn't be re-graded in post anyway as long as it isn't severe.

 

O.K. Will expose it at the correct ASA/ISO rating then. I have no intention to blow my highlights :-)

 

BTW: got (for free) a couple 100ft reels from a short end of 16mm Eastman EXR 50D neg. No exp. date. I'll use it for test footage only. My guesstimate is: mid 1990s at best (it's been around since 1989 so I read). Of course: no idea how it has been stored over the years. I take the risk and hit it with a healthy dose of added exposure. I'll go for + 1.1/3 stop (one click below 25 ASA/ISO on my light meter) to both compensate for sensitivity loss and a slight overexposure to minimize shadow grain. Both reels come from the exact same short end. Should be O.K. for test footage done in the bright summer sun (plenty of room for overexposure) - and I'll send one reel for processing and scanning before I expose the second one - damage control ;-) Thanks: will check the edge printing after processing. Some Eastman print stock only reads: "Eastman" in yellow-on-tranparent on the perf side edge BTW.... since the E. EXP 50D is camera stock it should be a little more comprehensive.

 

Thanks again!

 

Cheers,

Christian


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#4 Mark Dunn

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 09:04 AM

If you're seeing a colour bias on projection, you may need a new bulb, if in a scan, it's the scan. E100 is was one of the truest reversal stocks in the business.


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#5 Heikki Repo

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 09:37 AM

I have found helpful hint re:color negative to overexpose one full stop per decade when using expired stock.
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#6 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 02:33 PM

Mark: thanks for the information. I will have the E 100D scanned and graded - so no prob. Love the lush greens, yellows and true shadows of the E 100D - but I have also seen some footage with nice saturated colors all over the spectrum (fantastic blues and reds) and very balanced - quite similar to the Vision 3 neg stocks. Yes: the E 100D was great.

 

Heikki: Just shot some of the expired Eastman EXR 50D. Overexposed 1:1/3 stop and when in doubt I even opened a little. Might not have been enough. Sunlight is very intense where I live, so I was almost always between f-8 and f-11 (shutter speed at 24fps 1/60th -150 degree angle). Plenty of room to add three stops next time. Thanks for the tip.

 

BTW: Guess I'll need to use my ND filter (came with the K-3) when shooting with the E 100D. Couldn't figure out the reduction though. It says: H-4x. I measured with the flat  white lumidisc and it indicated exactly two stops of reduction at all times. Could this be correct (I measured for incidental light) ? Just by eyeballing it seems about right - but the human eye can be deceiving. Couldn't figure out what 4x means. Google doesn't come up with anything useful. Any tip very highly appreciated. Instruction booklet says nothing :-/

 

Cheers,

Christian


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#7 John Salim

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 03:54 AM

I agree with Mark, there's no natural colour bias with 100D, but as it's a 'vivid saturation' *film, some stronger colours will pop out and may give an impression of some bias.

 

John S  :rolleyes:

 

* Ektachrome 100D is actually the same emulsion as 'stills' Ektachrome 100VS.


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#8 Mark Dunn

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 04:15 AM

4x is just the filter factor- multiply exposure by 4. Same as ND6.


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#9 Doug Palmer

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 04:47 AM

I agree with Mark, there's no natural colour bias with 100D, but as it's a 'vivid saturation' *film, some stronger colours will pop out and may give an impression of some bias.

 

John S  :rolleyes:

 

* Ektachrome 100D is actually the same emulsion as 'stills' Ektachrome 100VS.

I've always found E100D has a red bias when it comes to caucasian skin tones.  Do others agree ?  I guess for close-ups this could be rectified with a suitable filter. Which one ? 

But other than that it is has very neutral colours somewhat similar to Kodachrome.  I usually control the strong contrast by flashing the film. Old stock may have some fogging anyway :rolleyes: could be interesting


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#10 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 06:15 AM

4x is just the filter factor- multiply exposure by 4. Same as ND6.

So that means two stops, like 200 ASA/ISO becoming 50 ASA/ISO. So my light meter reading was correct?

 

Thanks for the reply.

Christian


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#11 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 06:23 AM

I've always found E100D has a red bias when it comes to caucasian skin tones.  Do others agree ?  I guess for close-ups this could be rectified with a suitable filter. Which one ? 

But other than that it is has very neutral colours somewhat similar to Kodachrome.  I usually control the strong contrast by flashing the film. Old stock may have some fogging anyway :rolleyes: could be interesting

 

Hmmm, not sure about this. Check the following 16mm amateur footage by Gauge film, UK. They are known for top notch E-6 processing and faithful HD scans with the Muller HD: If anything, caucasian skin tones lean towards yellow (I asked them: it is E 100D). Flat non-log scan:

 

Kodachrome: love it to death, but it isn't faithful at all (IMHO). Shadows turn blueish (Kodachrome LUTs even imitate exactly that). Still one of my all time favorites for that incredible, gorgeous (but not necessarily true to life) look. Check this (the later sunlight scenes), processed and scanned in 2001:


Edited by Christian Schonberger, 13 June 2016 - 06:25 AM.

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#12 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 06:51 AM

Sorry, typing error, the Kodachrome 16mm footage was exposed and processed in 2010.


Edited by Christian Schonberger, 13 June 2016 - 06:53 AM.

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#13 Doug Palmer

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 04:59 AM

 

Hmmm, not sure about this. Check the following 16mm amateur footage by Gauge film, UK. They are known for top notch E-6 processing and faithful HD scans with the Muller HD: If anything, caucasian skin tones lean towards yellow (I asked them: it is E 100D). Flat non-log scan:

 

 

Kodachrome: love it to death, but it isn't faithful at all (IMHO). Shadows turn blueish (Kodachrome LUTs even imitate exactly that). Still one of my all time favorites for that incredible, gorgeous (but not necessarily true to life) look. Check this (the later sunlight scenes), processed and scanned in 2001:

 

Well that scan looks very good for the colour and  contast.  It's strange then that I've always found the skin becomes reddish with Ektachrome 100D.  I've never used Gaugefilm for 16mm, previously it was Dwaynes and recently Andec.   No filter on camera for daylight. So maybe I just film too late in the day or something, wierd.

Kodachrome yes did go blue in the shadows, but generally I always thought colours pretty natural. I remember I used to flash that too to control contrast.


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#14 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 07:03 AM

Well that scan looks very good for the colour and  contast.  It's strange then that I've always found the skin becomes reddish with Ektachrome 100D.  I've never used Gaugefilm for 16mm, previously it was Dwaynes and recently Andec.   No filter on camera for daylight. So maybe I just film too late in the day or something, wierd.

Kodachrome yes did go blue in the shadows, but generally I always thought colours pretty natural. I remember I used to flash that too to control contrast.

Dwaynes and Andec are excellent labs from what I saw on the YouTubes. Flashing film to control contrast: Wow, sounds like one really needs to know exactly how to do that. Yup: old expired film very often has fogging. The problem is that it is very likely uneven. Just got some 30 year old Orwo-Chrom UT15 reversal back from the lab (original chemicals). Lost a lot of sensitivity ( I already opened more than one stop and it still wasn't enough) and the hue is a bit uneven in places. Some serious "migration" also in places. It was very cheap anyway and more than good enough for tests. Kodachrome: I just love it. It has (had) that special magic to it - everything looks just beautiful and almost "3D". That slight blue or sometimes cyan-ish tint in the shadows is more than fine with me. Looks awesome and lasts very long. But I'm preaching to the choir :-D


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#15 Doug Palmer

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Posted 15 June 2016 - 04:04 AM

Christian, if you ever decide not  to go ahead with your E100D filming, let me know please as I'd be interested in getting some more !    I'm working on a film with this stock. 

BTW  in your Kodachrome snowy film  when you say the shadows are bluish or cyan etc, eg the side of the train, is this not merely the effect caused by the surrounding snow and sky ?   And the earlier overcast sledging scenes look very natural to me.   A deep sigh for Kodachrome ....


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#16 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 15 June 2016 - 05:16 AM

Christian, if you ever decide not  to go ahead with your E100D filming, let me know please as I'd be interested in getting some more !    I'm working on a film with this stock. 

BTW  in your Kodachrome snowy film  when you say the shadows are bluish or cyan etc, eg the side of the train, is this not merely the effect caused by the surrounding snow and sky ?   And the earlier overcast sledging scenes look very natural to me.   A deep sigh for Kodachrome ....

Well I really would love to help. I am fortunate enough to still have another reel of E 100D reserved for me (I can't afford it right now, but my supplier is a cool guy). I know it's very expensive and very sought after. Seen a 400ft reel for over USD 800 on Ebay ('buy it now' option only). 100ft reels, if you find them at all, go for way over USD 200! Crazy! I love that film stock myself.

I will ask my supplier (ebay seller and a fellow 16mm user) if he has access to some more affordable E 100D. He loves cross processing and more experiments with expired film stock for himself. Can't promise anything though. I wish I could be of more help.

 

The Kodachrome footage I posted was shot by Dennis Toeppen, the YouTube encyclopedia of 16mm film stocks :-D

The blue/cyan bias in the shadows seem to be part of the Kodachrome look. I'm sure there are experts on these boards who know it much better than I do. Anyway: I fully agree: Kodachrome was a dream! My all time favorite film stock for (bright) daylight - by far! Not just "romantic, nostalgic" - it was killer! Repeating myself (might be the age LOL) I look at modern top notch documentary/travel footage (National Geographic style) on 4K digital. Very nice! I just imagine how much more breathtaking it would look if shot with, say an Arriflex 416 and made-for-35mm lenses ("Carol" style) - on Kodachrome and scanned at 4K RAW. The grain would be fine enough to look like a good 35mm print. Oh well....

 

Will keep you posted on the E 100D. No promises though....

 

Cheers,

Christian


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#17 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 15 June 2016 - 09:56 AM

Christian, if you ever decide not  to go ahead with your E100D filming, let me know please as I'd be interested in getting some more !    I'm working on a film with this stock. 

BTW  in your Kodachrome snowy film  when you say the shadows are bluish or cyan etc, eg the side of the train, is this not merely the effect caused by the surrounding snow and sky ?   And the earlier overcast sledging scenes look very natural to me.   A deep sigh for Kodachrome ....

Here is an excellent offer on Ebay. I already bought 16mm film stock from this seller. Highly recommended:

 

http://www.ebay.com/...=p2056016.l4276


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#18 David Cunningham

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 04:35 PM

You definitely want to stick with metering E100D at 100 even when it's old. Attempting to compensate for degradation with that stock will just result in more severe color shift or loss and blown out highlights. If frozen the 2009 reels should be perfect. The 2001 rolls may have a bit of fog, some magenta shift and/or some loss of contrast. (The black might not be so black. ). The good news is Provia is now available in super 8 and perhaps 16mm in the future. Also, the film Ferrania group should be releasing their 16mm color reversal soon. I'm sure it won't hold a candle to e100d. But here's hoping its at least decent.
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#19 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 05:04 PM

You definitely want to stick with metering E100D at 100 even when it's old. Attempting to compensate for degradation with that stock will just result in more severe color shift or loss and blown out highlights. If frozen the 2009 reels should be perfect. The 2001 rolls may have a bit of fog, some magenta shift and/or some loss of contrast. (The black might not be so black. ). The good news is Provia is now available in super 8 and perhaps 16mm in the future. Also, the film Ferrania group should be releasing their 16mm color reversal soon. I'm sure it won't hold a candle to e100d. But here's hoping its at least decent.

David,

Thanks for the tips! Fuji Provia 100F? So is Fuji back in business or did another manufacturer acquire the emulsion formula? That sounds awesome! Even more so because the Provia can be processed with the widely available E-6 (same as the Ekatchrome 100D and the Wittner Chrome 200D, the latter surprisingly yielding good (though still far from great) results when slightly overexposed, at least in situations with no harsh highlights). I'll definitely will check on the Provia (hopefully soon to come in 16mm). I truly like the Kodak Vision 3 neg stocks, but a top quality alternative with that unique reversal look would be a most welcome addition.

 

Wittner Chrome 200D 16mm overexposure test (Canon Scoopic) by Kevin from Gauge Film, UK:

 

 

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Christian


Edited by Christian Schonberger, 20 June 2016 - 05:05 PM.

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#20 John Salim

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 10:14 AM

You definitely want to stick with metering E100D at 100 even when it's old. Attempting to compensate for degradation with that stock will just result in more severe color shift or loss and blown out highlights. If frozen the 2009 reels should be perfect. The 2001 rolls may have a bit of fog, some magenta shift and/or some loss of contrast. (The black might not be so black. ). The good news is Provia is now available in super 8 and perhaps 16mm in the future. Also, the film Ferrania group should be releasing their 16mm color reversal soon. I'm sure it won't hold a candle to e100d. But here's hoping its at least decent.

 

Where can you buy Super 8 Provia film David ?

 

'Pro-8' were suppose to start producing it ( ....there's no mention of it on their website, but please correct me ), and personally I can't see Ferrania producing film for at least a year.

 

John S  :(


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