Jump to content




Photo

How to simulate: Fire illumination, Pyro Effects, Living room on fire

Fire Pyro campfire living room nuke green screen how-to vfx sfx

  • Please log in to reply
15 replies to this topic

#1 Daniel Reed

Daniel Reed
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Other
  • San Francisco

Posted 13 June 2016 - 08:30 PM

Greetings,

 

First off, my apologies for not writing a shorter and more concise piece.  
I will revise this post as time permits - Think of this as a living document.

 

 

During a recent creative meet for an upcoming short, the idea emerged to simulate parts of a living room appearing on fire during a dramatic dialogue scene

 

 

The thought is to simulate fire illumination and smoke and composite pyro physical effects plates in during post. 

 

We will be shooting this in 8K anamorphic at low compression ratios

 

Think of the end sequence of "Barton Fink" and some scenes from "Synecdoche, New York"

 

This is for a micro/no budget production by former film students & both semi pros and serious pros as a portfolio/fun/festival/creative piece. We are using our own camera and a lot of gear, and renting additional lights/grip/stuff as need

 

 

WE HAVE NO INTENTION OF SETTING THE SET ON FIRE

 

NOR IS ANYONE PAYING US TO MAKE THIS

 

 

The idea we are kicking around is that during a sequence of a couple locked off shots, two people are sitting on a couch exchanging drama rich dialogue, and in the background(maybe out of focus) we see curtains and the wall on fire. additionally, we also want to have fire/smokes elements appearing in front of the talent. Think of the subjects as being sandwiched between fire elements.

 

Something sorta like these, but as static/locked shots

 

Barton Fink Fire scene:
https://youtu.be/P_8O-iDvlmA

 

Synecdoche's Burning House

https://youtu.be/SF9yFCSICE8

 

How to set a living room on fire:

https://youtu.be/yLqVmBeJre4

 

 

Our thoughts on how to achieve this look so far:

 

1) bouncing a 1K tungsten (maybe a couple of 650s) off a gold reflector to simulate the fire flicker - this would be similiar in application as using a silver reflect to simulated water reflection from moonlight

 

2) candles + incense in front and underneath the frame to provide heat warping and some smoke during principle

 

3) Make fire plates and luma map - Match and duplicate the angles/distance of the camera in relationship to the set, hang curtains in a dark area in front of black, such as in a cleared warehouse or on a paved surface somewhere remote (maybe at night), make sure they are similar in setup to the hot set, set them on fire - then luma map the fire in post as a layer effect for the backgrounds

 

4) purchase and use prematted green screen fire effects for additional layer/post work

 

5) shoot the scene with the actors on set with a green screed behind them, then shoot it again w/out the actors there, to more easily control the layer effects in post

 

6) Hazer to, well, add haze (we'll be using one anyway for depth/texture, but may kick it up a bit for this part)

 

 

We may do the composting in aftereffects, as none of us have experience with Nuke.

 

We absolutely welcome the addition of any interested nuke/fx compositor in the bay area who is interested in building their portfolio and/or willing to contribute to a creative project for a reduced rate. Push comes to shove, we are willing to work something out for payment, it just may delay our initial shoot, as this is all out of pocket and none of us are in the six-to-seven figure salary club.

 

We will most likely not use a generator on location

 

We are still a few month away before we can begin developing the shoot schedule/etc.

 

We want to explore the possibility as a narrative component near the ending before finalizing the script (twenty pages) 

 

 

Thank you for any and all advise and guidance.

It is very much appreciated.


Edited by Daniel Reed, 13 June 2016 - 08:44 PM.

  • 0




#2 Daniel Reed

Daniel Reed
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Other
  • San Francisco

Posted 13 June 2016 - 08:57 PM

Apparently I have time-limited rights to update posts:

 

Here's a few examples similar looks we're trying to achieve:

barton+fink.png

 

tumblr_inline_nm24vfx6L51qg45mv.gif

 

synecdoche-new-york-1.jpg


Edited by Daniel Reed, 13 June 2016 - 09:00 PM.

  • 0

#3 Satsuki Murashige

Satsuki Murashige
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3081 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • San Francisco, CA

Posted 13 June 2016 - 09:28 PM

Is the location going to be a set or an actual home? That may be one of the major limiting factors in what can be done practically and what must be done with compositing.

Foreground flames - there is a device called a flame bar that is used to create controlled flames near the camera. It is often used in conjunction with a telephoto lens to create the effect of shooting through fire or to create heat waves rising up from below the frame line. But you may have issues with using that in an actual home. On a sound stage, it would be fine with the standard precautions.

Also, have you storyboarded the sequence yet? It's seems to me that with standard coverage of two static characters on a couch, you could rather easily shoot the actors against greenscreen, in which case the interactive lighting need only work on the foreground. Something like a Magic Gadgets Flicker Box with some tungsten fresnels would be perfect. Little Giant, DTC, and Rebel Sun would have them:

http://littlegiantlighting.com
http://www.dtcgrip.com
http://www.rebelsun.com

You could then shoot the burning plates outside in a large empty parking lot at night and composite them in. No need for haze then either. I would worry about using an oil-based hazer like the DF-50 around open flames in a confined space, even a flame bar. But I have never done it myself, so it would be best to ask someone who has experience with these things.
  • 1

#4 timHealy

timHealy
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1232 posts
  • Other
  • New York

Posted 13 June 2016 - 10:14 PM

I'm not sure how much fire effect you are asking for. Are you just looking for a way to make a fire lighting effect on and actor and the actual flames will be added in post?

 

My favorite low budget easy flicker effect is a Magic Gadget Shadow Maker. You can plug in three 20 amp circuits into it to power 3 20 amp lights (or less). It has pre programmed effects. Just adjust the high and low on each fixture (usually a fast flicker is better for flames).

 

This is a suggestion if you ar slow budget and don't plan on using a dimmer board and building a flicker effect with that.

 

Best

 

Tim


  • 0

#5 Daniel Reed

Daniel Reed
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Other
  • San Francisco

Posted 13 June 2016 - 10:21 PM

Awesome, thanks Satsuki, I didn't know about the Magic Gadgets flicker dimmer AND I use DTC (went to their Xmas party)

 

Serious thanks for the hazer fire hazard tip, good thing to double check, I've used several light candles on a haze filled rooms before... and with a single DF-50 in fact - OOPS!

 

I'll swing by DTC and inquire, I'm renting various stuff from there already for this.


  • 0

#6 Daniel Reed

Daniel Reed
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Other
  • San Francisco

Posted 13 June 2016 - 10:27 PM

Cool Tim; another vote for Magic Gadgets

 

Looks like I found the "Magic" pages:

 

Shadowmaker:

https://www.magicgad...ct/shadowmaker/

 

Flicker Dimmer:

https://www.magicgad...flicker-dimmer/


Edited by Daniel Reed, 13 June 2016 - 10:29 PM.

  • 0

#7 Stuart Brereton

Stuart Brereton
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2576 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 13 June 2016 - 10:29 PM

I would worry about using an oil-based hazer like the DF-50 around open flames in a confined space, even a flame bar. But I have never done it myself, so it would be best to ask someone who has experience with these things.

The manufacturer's data sheet for DF-50 specifically requires that it be kept away from naked flames.


  • 0

#8 Daniel Reed

Daniel Reed
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Other
  • San Francisco

Posted 13 June 2016 - 10:37 PM

Stuart/Satsuki,

 

Are their alternative hazer fluids for use w/ the DF-50 that are safe for use with small open flames?

 

 

I love the look of the DF-50 and haze in general,

what alternatives besides making actual smoke could i employ to create the look of haze?

(besides actual smoke - heh)


Edited by Daniel Reed, 13 June 2016 - 10:40 PM.

  • 0

#9 Daniel Reed

Daniel Reed
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Other
  • San Francisco

Posted 14 June 2016 - 12:00 AM

Stuart, do you have a link to the datasheet you're refering to?

 

I'm looking at the reel efx DF-50 one sheet and data sheets for fluids and the only reference I can find for "flame" is in the long term storage section for the oil based fluid. 

 

DF-50 diffusion fluid (oil based) data sheet:

http://www.reelefx.c..._fluid_2016.pdf

 

 

The oil-less version doesn't mention "flame", and has no warning at all (that I noticed) for combustibility

 

DF-50 oil-less fluid

http://www.reelefx.c...l_less_2016.pdf

 

 

I suppose i'll just give Reel EFX and DTC a call and see what they say


Edited by Daniel Reed, 14 June 2016 - 12:12 AM.

  • 0

#10 Satsuki Murashige

Satsuki Murashige
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3081 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • San Francisco, CA

Posted 14 June 2016 - 03:28 PM

I believe Rosco Fog Fluid is water-based and would work in a machine like the Mole Fogger or a cheap party fogger. But you should check the specs on it and talk to the guys at DTC before taking it out on a shoot.

Another safer option would be to use a single net in a large frame between the talent and the background to reduce contrast and create a haze effect. However, this won't work if you have any fire or specular light sources behind the net as the net pattern will become visible. Or you could try Tiffen Smoque filters. They tend to work best when there is a large window or other large soft light source in the background.
  • 0

#11 Daniel Reed

Daniel Reed
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Other
  • San Francisco

Posted 14 June 2016 - 06:07 PM

FYI: 

I called Reel EFX and they said there should be absolutely no problem in terms of combustibility with either their oil or oil-less fluid when using the DF-50 - I specifically also asked about flamebars, and they report never hearing of any problems with fire when using the DF-50 with their oils. The only issue with fire might be a flamethrower, but only because its flame thrower, which is just crazy dangerous already in and of itself.

 

Looks like we can chalk up compustion/fire concerns with hazers as an urban myth


  • 0

#12 Daniel Reed

Daniel Reed
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Other
  • San Francisco

Posted 14 June 2016 - 06:30 PM

Satsuki, I have a crate full of Tiffen glass filtration, but no smoque.

I've thought about adding a plain fog or double when we test  - in addition to physical haze

 

I'll look around for a smoque, for enhancing the effect

will most likely also test digital filtration as well,

both in terms of tiffen DFX filters and keyed smoke/fire vfx such as:

http://www.detfilms4k.com/fire.html

http://www.detfilms4k.com/smoke.html

(their smoke may be too fast moving for an indoor fire)


Edited by Daniel Reed, 14 June 2016 - 06:31 PM.

  • 0

#13 Satsuki Murashige

Satsuki Murashige
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3081 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • San Francisco, CA

Posted 14 June 2016 - 07:41 PM

Double Fog is pretty similar to Smoque. Low Con would also be similar. Try Videofax and Chater Camera for the Smoques.

www.videofax.com
www.chatercamera.com

Good to hear about the oil-based hazer fluid, thanks for reporting back.
  • 0

#14 Stuart Brereton

Stuart Brereton
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2576 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 14 June 2016 - 08:22 PM

 

I'm looking at the reel efx DF-50 one sheet and data sheets for fluids and the only reference I can find for "flame" is in the long term storage section for the oil based fluid. 

 

DF-50 diffusion fluid (oil based) data sheet:

http://www.reelefx.c..._fluid_2016.pdf

 

That's most likely the same one I read. If it says keep away from flames when storing it, then it follows that you'd also do the same when using it, particularly as the oil would then be vaporized, and so easier to ignite.


  • 0

#15 Daniel Reed

Daniel Reed
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Other
  • San Francisco

Posted 04 July 2016 - 03:18 AM

Thanks all for your input; my team is moving forward with this visual effect as narrative tool!

 

I'm pretty excited about it! I'll try to post stills and maybe even a private video of some of the shots late in the year!

 

We won't be shooting this scene for at least 2-3 months from now;

Please do feel free to contribute any additional ideas!  :)


  • 0

#16 Maximilian Motel

Maximilian Motel
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts
  • Other
  • Berlin, Germany

Posted 11 July 2016 - 10:01 AM

Since you said that you were not being paid to shoot this, I assume very-low-budget approaches for the fire might be helpful, too.

Shane Hurlbut posted about "cheap DIY fire" a while ago. If you haven't seen it: http://www.thehurlbl...diy-fire-light/.


Edited by Maximilian Motel, 11 July 2016 - 10:01 AM.

  • 0



Zylight

Glidecam

rebotnix Technologies

Visual Products

Metropolis Post

Aerial Filmworks

Rig Wheels Passport

Willys Widgets

Technodolly

Pro 8mm

Paralinx LLC

The Slider

Tai Audio

CineTape

Abel Cine

Ritter Battery

CineLab

Broadcast Solutions Inc

The Slider

Paralinx LLC

Visual Products

CineLab

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Tai Audio

Rig Wheels Passport

Abel Cine

Willys Widgets

Glidecam

Ritter Battery

Aerial Filmworks

CineTape

Metropolis Post

rebotnix Technologies

Zylight

Pro 8mm

Technodolly