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IN to Release Print Question


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#1 Frank Chang

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 08:50 AM

Just curious to know the process of making release print from internegative.

Do labs make the release print from married/composite internegative?

Or do labs make the release print from two sources?

(i.e. internegative and a separate 35mm reel with soundtrack only)


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#2 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 11:18 AM

So it goes:

Cut Negative
Interpositive
Internegative
Release print

The Interpositive will be a "composite" of the picture and sound track, married together on the printer. It's during the interpositive process that color changes are applied as well. A few internegatives will be struck from the interpositive in order to make release prints. Quite a few prints can be struck from an internegative before it starts to fall apart. But of course, the best prints are made from a duplicate negative, which is really the highest quality composite source.
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#3 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 11:31 AM

You mean original negative would be the highest quality source for a print -- you make prints either from the original negative or the dupe negative, you don't make prints from an interpositive, that would require some sort of reversal process to go positive to positive.


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#4 Frank Chang

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 11:49 AM

So David, do when labs make the release prints, do they use an internegative that is married or do they use 2 sources

(i.e. internegative and a separate 35mm reel with soundtrack only) separately during the duplication release print?


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#5 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 12:01 PM

You mean original negative would be the highest quality source for a print -- you make prints either from the original negative or the dupe negative, you don't make prints from an interpositive, that would require some sort of reversal process to go positive to positive.


Sorry, yea I was thinking dupe negative.
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#6 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 12:04 PM

The sound is printed onto the film during the IP stage usually before the picture is printed from the OCN. Can be optical or Dolby/DTS/SDDS.
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#7 Simon Wyss

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 12:43 PM

That surprises me. I have never heard from a European lab that the projection positives would not receive the soundtrack directly from the original sound negative which has been exposed after a master. We are used to have either the original camera negative or an internegative on the printer along with an original sound negative.


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#8 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 01:43 PM

It used to be that the soundtrack was copied to the duplicate negative, but only for B&W and certainly not in the last fifty years or so. I see this configuration only on very old archive material in B&W from the 1950s or before. Currently all soundtracks are printed from a separate sound negative that can be used with the original negative (if suitable for printing) or from the duplicate negative. Friends in large labs told me they could strike about 2500 prints from one set of duplicate negatives.

A separate sound printer head is used because the exposure of the soundtrack is quite different from the picture. Also, light changes in the picture would do no good in the soundtrack.


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#9 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 03:28 PM

I should have articulated that better I didn't mean to say that IP has sound on it as well (besides as Dirk mentions this archival style) rather the sound is printed after picture lock, before color timing etc, to a separate negative but at the same stage as IP.

Edited by Kenny N Suleimanagich, 15 September 2016 - 03:29 PM.

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#10 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 05:44 PM

I was waiting for a lab person to answer that, my understanding was that the optical track was added in a separate exposure pass but I wasn't sure if that was still true once they went from silver application tracks to cyan or high-magenta dye soundtracks...


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#11 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 08:01 PM

I was always told they ran it through the printer at the same time.
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#12 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 12:41 AM

The printing machine has two printing heads, one for picture and one for sound. Two negatives are threaded to make one positive print.
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#13 Frank Chang

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 05:59 AM

What is the average life-spin for the internegative for making the positive print? 300 to 500 positive prints?

I think I have heard 1,000 to 2,000 positive print before the need to change the internegative.


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#14 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 10:32 AM

There is additional useful information on this in this thread.  I believe the most common sound recording film is still Agfa ST8.D


Edited by Kenny N Suleimanagich, 16 September 2016 - 10:33 AM.

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#15 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 11:22 AM

The printing machine has two printing heads, one for picture and one for sound. Two negatives are threaded to make one positive print.

 

I assume that doesn't mean three pieces of film are sandwiched together but that there are two heads side by side to expose the image and then the sound as the print stock passes through?


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#16 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 12:34 PM

David, that is correct.

I would like to add that in case of a direct blow-up/reduction on an optical printer, the sound negative is exposed after the image on a separate contact printer, using only the soundhead.

Agfa ST8D was a very good stock, but no longer available and no longer manufactured. Kodak and Orwo have comparable stocks.


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#17 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 05:36 PM

Dirk,

Any chance of a photo showing the two headed contact printer.  (picture and sound for the release print)  It would be very educative for the rest of us.

 

Thanks,

Gregg.


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#18 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 11:51 PM

I will get a picture on Monday;


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#19 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 12:41 PM

Here is a picture of the 35mm bi-directional panel printer, image head on the left, sound head on the right.

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#20 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 02:54 PM

Thanks Dirk.


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