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Spirit 4K DataCine Scan Question


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#1 Frank Chang

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 02:29 PM

We did a scan with Spirit 4K DataCine into DPX 16 bits. The scan quality is perfect and we plan to have more reels to be scanned.

The only question is that the scan does have approx 2% to maybe 5% on the right side of the image that is not in the scan dpx. Is this

normal (i.e. for the 2% to 5%) for the fit-to-image option (without going to over-scan)? Or are there better scanner that can really

scan all the way up to edge to edge without overscan and does not show the frameline/borderline?


Edited by Frank Chang, 16 September 2016 - 02:33 PM.

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#2 David Cunningham

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 03:31 PM

I believe with the likes of the Director at MetroPost, the Xenia at Cinelab, or the ScanStation at Gamma Ray Digital you can adjust the zoom on the frame to catch as little or as much of the frame lines as you want.

However, the frame itself may not be exactly a 4K aspect ratio. What format is the film? If the aspect ratio of the frame on the film doesn't match the scan aspect ratio there is no way to avoid cropping something to make it all fit without seeing the frame lines in an "overscan".
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#3 David Cunningham

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 03:35 PM

In Super35 you can kinda see what I mean in this link.

https://en.m.wikiped...g/wiki/Super_35

What would be odd, however, is for that crop to not be centered. It shouldn't be mostly left or right.
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#4 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 04:17 PM

What aspect ratio is the original? Is it standard 35mm or Super-35mm?


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#5 Frank Chang

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 06:10 PM

The aspect ratio is 1.33:1

Standard 35mm

All the reels are internegatives with orange mask, no audio tracks.


Edited by Frank Chang, 16 September 2016 - 06:10 PM.

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#6 Frank Chang

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 08:29 PM

Sorry. Correction (Aspect ratio is 1.37:1)

 

The aspect ratio is 1.37:1

Standard 35mm

All the reels are internegatives with orange mask, no audio tracks.


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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 10:21 PM

Does the 4K Spirit have a fixed relation between the sensor and the film, so the Super-35 / Full Aperture is 4096 pixels across but Standard 35mm is a little less?


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#8 Frank Chang

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 09:36 AM

Not sure about fixed relation, however, Spirit can go up to 3.5 for the DMAX and uses 16-bit sensors.


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#9 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 10:08 AM

https://www.theasc.c...rum2/page3.html

This article suggests it's a fixed relation so Academy width gets scanned at 3656 pixels, Super at 4096.
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#10 David Cunningham

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 11:55 AM

https://www.theasc.c...rum2/page3.html

This article suggests it's a fixed relation so Academy width gets scanned at 3656 pixels, Super at 4096.




Yeah. The more modern systems are capable of zooming in or out or centering however you wish, with cropping of course. It sounds like the spirit is probably centered for super35 so it ends up off center for standard 35mm. Unfortunate.

I would do a 5K scan at Gamma Ray or Cinelab with frame overscan so you can crop and frame however you wish, even scene to scene.
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#11 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 01:28 PM

Ye the Spirit 2K/4K are fixed in relation to the film, they make excellent scans and they are fast machines but no overscan and can't scan academy at 4096 pixels wide.


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#12 Frank Chang

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 02:12 PM

The DPX file property in Photoshop does show 4096 x 3112 at 72 dpi.

 

Here is a sample attachment of a frame. Notice the top of the image have curves on both corners.

If doing the overscan, I assume the curves will have to be edit-out anyway.

 

Upon closeup checkup, the scan does appear to be cutting off on right and left at the curve.

Attached Images

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Edited by Frank Chang, 17 September 2016 - 02:25 PM.

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#13 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 03:07 PM

The soundtrack area is usually on the left, but maybe this is upside down... This isn't a scan, right?  Otherwise why is it crooked?  Maybe they've been scanning it flipped but using Academy width so that they are scanning most of the soundtrack area but are cropping the right side of the image?


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#14 Frank Chang

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 04:19 PM

Oh, sorry, yes, this is just a photo sample took from a cell phone camera upside down. The scanned image is not crooked. There are no soundtrack on the film.

The photo is only to show about the 4 corners with the curves. The blank area on the right of the photo is suppose to be on the left

and where the soundtrack area is suppose to be.


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#15 Frank Chang

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 05:58 PM

Just to avoid confusion. The photo above is an image took directly from the frame of the film with a cell phone upside down. It is just to show the frame image with 4 corners with the curves.

The DPX scanned images are perfect and not crooked, except the left and right are cut-off at the curves. I suppose any overscan will show the curves and will have to be edit-out anyway?


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#16 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 10:51 PM

Just remember that the three linear CCD's in a Spirit 2K/4k are fixed as is the film gate slit and lens, any scaling is done in hardware not optically.

 

The Spirit 2K/4K has the advantage of scanning each film record in 4096 lines i.e. R,G and B so no Bayer mask interpretation so these scanners produce a high speed true RGB scan.

 

Compare this to our Xena Pin Registered 5K scanner, which uses a 5K monochrome sensor and sequential scans of 5K for each R,G,B and a moveable lens and CCD Camera, this allows for overscan etc. but the speed is the tradeoff at 2Sec per frame instead of 5-10 FPS for a Spirit 4K.


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#17 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 11:23 PM

Keep in mind the difference between camera aperture and projector aperture. During shooting he negative will be carefully framed to the projector aperture, if you show more than this, you may run into dollytracks, microphones, etc. The director and camera operator are not going to like it if you show unintended extra image. Unless it is your own film, it is best to stick to the official formats. 


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#18 Frank Chang

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 10:22 AM

Thank you, David.

 

Robert, with the speed of Xena (slow) vs Spirit 4K, is there a scan image quality difference on the DPX?

(Assuming that the overscan of 5K still gets edit-out back to 4K)

 

Dirt, we are in the process of doing archival and restoration for the owner.


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#19 Perry Paolantonio

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 07:55 PM

https://www.theasc.c...rum2/page3.html

This article suggests it's a fixed relation so Academy width gets scanned at 3656 pixels, Super at 4096.

 

 

Our Northlight works like this - Academy is 3656, Super is 4096 (at 4k. It can scan up to 6k).

 

The ScanStation, and I presume the Xena, as well as most modern scanners, have more flexibility. On our ScanStation, the sensor itself is about 5.1k, but it's always overscanning so that it can do optical pin registration before writing the files to disk. That means your actual frame area is 4k and that lets the operator specify the amount of overscan to dial in exactly what the client wants. 


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#20 Frank Chang

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 08:56 PM

So, if Photoshop is showing the DPX image property as 4096 x 3112 at 72 dpi. Does this still means the

actual scan is still 3656 (academy format, up-res to 4096) and not actually 4096? If so, are we getting

a lessor quality 4K DPX image file?

 

The scanned image does cut-off left and right at the start of the the curve, which is fine for us as those

areas were never meant to be shown.


Edited by Frank Chang, 18 September 2016 - 09:04 PM.

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