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Sony FS5 - Is it possible Sony will offer upgrade to 10bit 4K 422?


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#1 Matthew Rogan

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 08:20 AM

Even if its only limited to 30p. 

 

I've been trying to decide for a while now what camera I am going to buy. I have pretty much decided on an FS5, but from what I've heard, the 8bit 4K isn't great and I should really consider it a very good HD camera.

 

Now with the announcement of the GH5 with internal 10bit 4k 422 it seems like Panasonic are trying to undercut a lot of the competition. Now I would much rather have the FS5 with its proper body and variable ND etc but I can't say the 10bit 4k in the GH5 isn't tempting. 

 

Do you think it could be possible Sony would upgrade the FS5 to 4k 10bit via a firmware update? Even if its a paid option like what they did with the F5. I would gladly pay $500 or more for that ability.


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#2 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 09:39 AM

I doubt it.. the Fs5 has very limited processing power.. you pretty much only have an image in your EVF or SDI out.. but not both !! the F5 is a far cry from the Fs5.. if you can reach to an Fs7 or second hand F5.. its a much better camera.. by a big margin, for a relatively small amount more..  C500 is really cheap these days.. they cant give them away.. 


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#3 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 09:44 AM

The issue is compression and data rates of 10-bit XAVC-I Slog3 into an SD card. For the FS5 10-bit and DCI 4K is available via paid upgrade for external recording but as Robin mentions it is indeed processing/signal compression/card write speeds. That's why the FS7s are XQD cards.
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#4 Matthew Rogan

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 09:55 AM

Ah ok, thanks guys. I've been going back and forth in my head with the fs7 vs fs5. It'll cost me about €3000 to get the FS7 I reckon with the price difference in the bodies plus the XQHD cards. I think it might be the smart option though, the FS5 doesn't seem very future proof, whereas I can see the FS7 being used for a good many years to come. 


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#5 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 10:54 AM

The choice is your of course.. but I would agree with you.. it is a real 4K camera with cine EI mode and Slog.. etc.. and very popular these days in the doc,corp market.. or a second hand F5.. which is also a step up from the Fs7.. but not as much as the Fs7 is from the Fs5..   you should check out the Sony forums.. also XDCAMUSER.COM.. alot of info about the fs5/fs7/f5.. 


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#6 Kendrick Gray

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 05:50 PM

Actually the fs5 does support 4k 10 bit 422. I am an fs5 owner. All you have to do is buy the raw license and buy an external recorder. It will shoot up to 4k 120 fps 10 bit 422. Even shoots 12 bit raw. 


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#7 Kendrick Gray

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 05:56 PM

I am slow... it appears this has been said. 


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#8 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:47 PM

Actually the fs5 does support 4k 10 bit 422. I am an fs5 owner. All you have to do is buy the raw license and buy an external recorder. It will shoot up to 4k 120 fps 10 bit 422. Even shoots 12 bit raw. 

 

 

I wouldn't bet the farm on 12bit RAW though.. its mathematically impossible to get 14 stops DR .. without a float point.. and Its the only camera on the market claiming 14 stops RAW with only 12 bit.. you,ll likely get a better picture from 10 bit slog.. 


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#9 Kendrick Gray

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:52 PM

I thought dynamic range was not tied to something like that? Plus the fs5 raw signal is what creates the slog3 prores file. Without the recorder its still 10bit 1080p XAVC tho. But the raw signal has showed to make a better picture. The fs7 is only 12 bit too. 


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#10 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 03:00 AM

Sorry yes I meant Sony is the only camera maker that offers 12 Bit RAW..  see below the actual allocation of code values runs out at 12 stops.. with 12 bit its not possible technically ..  you need 16 bit at least.. so a floating point maths is used.. giving very low data is the shadows.. and so 10 bit Slog can give you the full 14 DR with better data distribution.. 

 

There is a good article on exactly this on XDCAMUSER.com.. the chart below is from it.. but pretty much the 12 bit RAW from Fs7Fs7 is a bit of a non starter ..

 

STOP:  CODE VALUES:  TOTAL CODE VALUES REQUIRED.

+1          1                                   1
+2          2                                   3
+3          4                                   8
+4          8                                   16
+5          16                                32
+6          32                                64
+7          64                                128
+8          128                             256 Middle Grey
+9          256                             512
+10       512                             1,024
+11       1,024                          2,048
+12       2,048                         4,096
+13       4,096                         8,192
+14       8,192                         16,384


Edited by Robin R Probyn, 15 February 2017 - 03:01 AM.

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#11 Kendrick Gray

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 04:51 PM

Isn't shooting raw 12 bit on these cameras already using slog like you said. Im confused.


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#12 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 06:49 PM

Sony RAW is "supposedly" linear straight off the sensor .. double the brightness.. double the data..   Log is a gamma curve being applied.. over mid grey.. the high lights have roughly the same amount of data for each stop..

For bright scenes the floating point 12 bit RAW is ok.. but anything on the dark side.. you will have very low amounts of data in the shadows...leading to blockiness etc.. for these scenes on the fs5/7 you are better off with 10 bit Slog.. than 12 bit RAW..as you,ll have more data in the shadows.. have a look at XDCAM-USER.com.. there is alot of info on Sony Slog and RAW.. basically 12 bit is not enough data for 14 stop  RAW ..


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