Jump to content


Photo

Blackmagic Cintel vs. Golden Eye II for S16mm Scanning?


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 Mark Kenfield

Mark Kenfield
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1037 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Australia/Wherever The Wind Takes Me

Posted 13 January 2017 - 03:15 AM

Hi Guys,

 

Just wondering if I can pick your brains about the two scanning options available to me down here at the end of the world.

I've got 5,000 feet of S16mm Vision 3 to scan, but all of the Arriscanners and Spirits in Australia were sold off some time ago, so my only options now are two places that have the new Blackmagic Cintel scanner, and another that has the Golden Eye 2.

 

From what I can see of the specs, it looks like the Cintel will record a slightly less-than-HD image in 12-bit log DNG. Where the Golden Eye 2 will record 2k RGB as 10 or 16-bit DPX. 

My main concerns are that (although I can't find it listed) the Blackmagic sounds like it's using a bayer-pattern sensor, and the perfs are included in the 1910 pixel-wide image. So after you crop in, you're getting a less than HD bayer pattern picture (which isn't an awful lot of colour information).

The Golden Eye 2 has a 3CCD sensor and can scan in 2k RGB in 10-bit or 16-bit, which sounds like a much more robust digital negative.

I haven't heard glowing reviews of either though. So I'd be really keen to hear people's opinions on the best way to go?

Cheers,

Mark


  • 0

#2 Perry Paolantonio

Perry Paolantonio
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 468 posts
  • Other
  • Boston, MA

Posted 13 January 2017 - 08:28 AM

The bigger issue with the BMD scanner is not that it's a bayer sensor (our ScanStation has one and the results are outstanding). Lack of color information isn't typically an issue with bayer sensors. But poorly implemented bayer sensor designs mean lots of fixed pattern noise, something but the BMD scanner definitely has (unless they've specifically addressed this recently). In the BMD scanner, the sensor is fixed relative to the film gate, so only 35mm is scannable at UHD (the machine's max resolution). 16mm is less than HD as you've surmised. 

 

The GoldenEye is a superior scanner to the BMD in almost all respects, so if you need to do the work in Australia, that's the way I'd go (though, PM me if you want a quote for doing this in the US. we work with lots of international clients, including some down under). It does have issues with splice bumps, however. And because it's a line scanner with a continuous motion transport (like the Spirit), it's susceptible to streaking artifacts if the sensor gets dirty.

 

16bit is way overkill. you just don't need it, and you're going to be fighting with the files if you go that route. They're massive and very few systems can actually play them correctly. 10bit DPX, ProRes 422HQ (10bit), ProRes 4444 (12bit) are the way to go, depending on your workflow. 

 

-perry


  • 0

#3 Mark Kenfield

Mark Kenfield
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1037 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Australia/Wherever The Wind Takes Me

Posted 13 January 2017 - 09:14 AM

Thanks Perry, that's very informative. Much appreciated.

What's the best way to contact you for a quote (if we decide we're not comfortable with the options down here)?


  • 0

#4 Perry Paolantonio

Perry Paolantonio
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 468 posts
  • Other
  • Boston, MA

Posted 13 January 2017 - 09:33 AM

Hi Mark,

 

You can PM me here on the forum or send me an email through our web site -- that goes directly to me. 

 

Thanks!

 

-perry


  • 0

#5 Robert Houllahan

Robert Houllahan
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1578 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Providence R.I.

Posted 14 January 2017 - 06:04 PM

I would second the Golden Eye, it is a true RGB 4K scanner and will provide a top notch scan.

 

We also just got a Scan Station for 35mm and 16mm and the scans on it are far superior to the BMD Cintel scanner, I would definitely consider a ScanStation scan as an alternative if the cost of the Golden Eye is too much for your production.


  • 0

#6 Mark Kenfield

Mark Kenfield
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1037 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Australia/Wherever The Wind Takes Me

Posted 16 January 2017 - 08:25 PM

Hi guys,

Just stumbled across a third option. There's a guy with a MovieStuff Retroscan Universal scanner down here too. Is anyone familiar with it? How does it compare to the Golden Eye II?

It can output to uncompressed HD, but I can't find much information on the sensor, and whether it can actually record a full RGB 4:4:4 image.

Cheers,

Mark


  • 0

#7 Robert Houllahan

Robert Houllahan
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1578 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Providence R.I.

Posted 16 January 2017 - 10:51 PM

The Moviestuff costs US $4500.00

 

The Golden Eye costs US $500,000.00+

 

The Golden Eye is a top end 4K true RGB 12bit data scanner, it is on par with a Spirit-4K and superior to the Arriscan.

 

The Moviestuff is not, it is a 8-bit cmos camera and very simple for basic home movie scans.


  • 0

#8 Robert Houllahan

Robert Houllahan
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1578 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Providence R.I.

Posted 16 January 2017 - 10:58 PM

http://www.moviestuf...stuff_home.html

 

http://www.digitalvi...e-film-scanner/


  • 0

#9 Mark Kenfield

Mark Kenfield
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1037 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Australia/Wherever The Wind Takes Me

Posted 16 January 2017 - 11:21 PM

Thanks Robert, yeah, I tracked down the camera that they use for the Moviestuff, so I've just dropped off the telecine reels with the Golden Eye II guys! Thanks for your help everyone, it's much appreciated.
  • 0

#10 Perry Paolantonio

Perry Paolantonio
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 468 posts
  • Other
  • Boston, MA

Posted 17 January 2017 - 08:36 AM

Yeah, the Moviestuff hardware is pretty low end. It might be ok in certain limited situations, but if you were looking at services that use that, I'd be wary. Most likely they're doing low-end home movie transfers directly to formats like DVD. Tons of compromises there, in terms of quality.


  • 0

#11 Mark Kenfield

Mark Kenfield
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1037 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Australia/Wherever The Wind Takes Me

Posted 18 January 2017 - 03:01 AM

Yeah, the Moviestuff hardware is pretty low end. It might be ok in certain limited situations, but if you were looking at services that use that, I'd be wary. Most likely they're doing low-end home movie transfers directly to formats like DVD. Tons of compromises there, in terms of quality.

 

Yeah, the guy with the Moviestuff sent me through a couple of .dpx frames, and there was a significant amount of digital chroma noise from the sensor paired in with the grain of the stock. I can certainly see it being fine for 8mm scans or personal projects, but the quality isn't up to snuff for professional projects in my opinion - I had pretty limited room to manoeuvre the images around in Davinci.

 

My 12-bit .dpx scans are already underway (actually a friend was just at the shop today, and got to see my own footage before me!) but his reports sounded mostly positive, so I may have actually managed to pull the shoot off (which is a bit of a relief - since this was my first time shooting film in eight years!).

 

This whole process has been a wonderful learning experience. I've scanned plenty of rolls of 135 and 120 in my time, but when I last shot motion picture film (back in uni), our whole process was photochemical, and we were cutting on a Steenbeck - so this will be my first ever (literal) DI. Really interesting stuff.


  • 0

#12 Will Montgomery

Will Montgomery
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2025 posts
  • Producer
  • Dallas, TX

Posted 06 February 2017 - 10:02 AM

Moviestuff is a great solution for mom & pop video companies transferring hours of home movies for people and possibly some Universities that have tons of footage to transfer and no funds to do it. Very affordable and a decent image. Probably the best entry-level scanner around. It's not meant to compete with a Lasergraphics machine...completely different market.


  • 0

#13 Robert Houllahan

Robert Houllahan
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1578 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Providence R.I.

Posted 07 February 2017 - 02:01 AM

I know someone with the latest Moviestuff 8mm 16mm scanner, it is 8-bit (I think) and lacks stabilization by perf machine vision (like LasreGraphics, kinetta and Xena) and any DPX frames would be derived from 8-bit jpeg or bitmap captures. Not a terrible machine for home movies. Like all these machines it is a color Bayer sensor with inherent noise and FPN issues and it has reasonable speed but it is CMOS which has it's own issues.

 

Also there is no profiling the (low cost) sensor with a LUT to make the colors "right" like a more expensive solution.

 

Like the adage Fast, Cheap, Quick pick any two, scanning is under the same restrictions, if you want true RGB scanning fast means line scan but that comes with issues with bumps on splices and line streaks with a hair or dirt in the gate, and it's expensive for Speed and HDR (Scannity 500K -700K +)

 

Fast CMOS scans have issues with FPN and are 12-bit at best, fast (relative 2fps with 5K Kodak CCD) color CCD scans can be 14-bit but not fast.

 

We bought a LaserGraphics machine in December and it really maximizes what can be done with a CMOS sensor machine, it is very impressive but can show some FPN at times.

 

That is why they offer the Director, it is true RGB and has multi flash HDR like Pin Reg Xena 7K or Northlight etc.

 

Many people think they want the "ultimate" scan i.e. Super-8mm at 10K or something but unless it is for Imax or 4K DCI it will be hard to tell the difference on a LCD screen if it be 2k (1080P) or 4K (UHD) because the display tech becomes the limitation.

 

YMMV


  • 0

#14 Daniel Henriquez Ilic

Daniel Henriquez Ilic
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 79 posts
  • Other
  • Santiago, Chile

Posted 16 February 2017 - 04:56 PM

Hi Robert,

 

Isn't the Scanity HDR capable of true RGB 16-bit scanning ?  This is the information I have so far. 

 

My understanding is that Vision3 color negs, due to their higher D-max, require (hopefully) more than 10-bit quantization.  

 

Best regards,

Daniel


  • 0

#15 Perry Paolantonio

Perry Paolantonio
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 468 posts
  • Other
  • Boston, MA

Posted 16 February 2017 - 05:02 PM

 

Isn't the Scanity HDR capable of true RGB 16-bit scanning ?  This is the information I have so far. 

 

It is, but the HDR is only for Black and White, not color. It's kind of a misleading model name. 


  • 0

#16 Daniel Henriquez Ilic

Daniel Henriquez Ilic
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 79 posts
  • Other
  • Santiago, Chile

Posted 16 February 2017 - 07:23 PM

It is, but the HDR is only for Black and White, not color. It's kind of a misleading model name. 

 

Wasn't aware of that.   So what would be its effective bit depth quantization in your opinion ? 14-bit per channel  (in a 16-bit DPX container) ?

BTW do you know any motion picture scanner capable of delivering true 16-bit ? 

In the photographic field the Flextight scanner are said to scan at 16-bit  http://www.hasselbla...rs/flextight-x5


  • 0

#17 Perry Paolantonio

Perry Paolantonio
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 468 posts
  • Other
  • Boston, MA

Posted 16 February 2017 - 09:55 PM

Wasn't aware of that.   So what would be its effective bit depth quantization in your opinion ? 14-bit per channel  (in a 16-bit DPX container) ?

BTW do you know any motion picture scanner capable of delivering true 16-bit ? 

In the photographic field the Flextight scanner are said to scan at 16-bit  http://www.hasselbla...rs/flextight-x5

 

No idea on the scanity. I never really took the thing that seriously. It was always way overpriced for what it is, with too many shortcomings for anything other than freshly shot film (and that's a bit of a niche in the scanning business - at least 75% of the work we do is archival, and scanners that have problems with splices aren't suitable for archival work). 

 

That said, I'm also not convinced that you'd really be gaining anything by having a true 16bit scan. At a certain point, it's overkill.


  • 0

#18 Robert Houllahan

Robert Houllahan
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1578 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Providence R.I.

Posted 17 February 2017 - 08:00 PM

I am not really sure that any CCD or CMOS sensor that is not liquid cooled can really resolve 16-bits, you can theoretically digitize any imager at 16-bits but those extra 2-4 bits are most likely sensor noise. The noise in an inherent issue with the analog wells which receive the photons and how that small voltage is amplified and then digitized.

 

Most film scanners are 12-bit and the Arri Alexa is 12-bit and there are few complaints about tonal range at 12-bits. 10-bit LOG is essentially 12-bits of data, compacted in a log curve.

 

That said the CCD lines in the Spirit 2K/4K are digitized at 16-bits but like I said I think there are a few bits of noise there, I was under the impression that Scannity used a set of 4K linear CCDs which had 10-15 lines for each R, G and B color and it combined the data from all of those lines into a HDR scan, I am not as down on Scannity as Perry is and it is clearly being bought by many very high end shops and it provides very high speed true RGB scans at the expense of being very expensive.

 

We have two CCD based Xena machines one has a color Bayer 5K Kodak CCD running at 1-tap output and 14-bits, it's maximum scan frame rate is 2 FPS and the other Xena is a 7K monochrome Kodak CCD at 1-tap output and 14-bits and it's maximum fame rate in 1-flash is about 3sec per frame.

 

The trade off in film scanning is always Speed vs Quality vs Complexity and expense.

 

I think trying to chase 16-bit scans down the rabbit hole when no consumer display is capable of more than 10bits usually is a race to emptying your wallet with diminishing returns.

 

Maybe if you are doing a high end DI for projection in a DCI environment and you want to do allot of color manipulation and VFX it is worth it but then you are spending real money.


  • 1

#19 Craig Nichols

Craig Nichols

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Other
  • Santa Clarita

Posted 08 June 2017 - 05:22 PM

We have transferred over a million feet of archival nitrate and safety film on Scanity in the past 18 months and have not had significant issues with splices, shrinkage, or warpage. Film has been from early 1900s up to 1970. Scanity uses three separate 96 line TDI cameras. We scan 4k 4300x3324 overscan 16 bit tiffs at 10fps. 

I have seen some very attractive offerings of used machines from time to time. 

 

Craig Nichols

Digital Imaging Fellow

The Packard Humanities Institute - Stoa

packhum.org


  • 0

#20 Wade Clarke

Wade Clarke

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
  • Director
  • Sydney

Posted 23 June 2017 - 07:59 AM

Hi. I'm new to the forum, also in Australia, and found this topic while looking around for someone local to scan a 16mm project of mine I made in 1996.

 

I see this topic started about half a year ago, at which point Mark mentioned he could find options with the BlackMagic and the GoldenEye locally.

 

I've only been able to identify one production house in Australia offering the BlackMagic and none offering the Goldeneye.

 

I made an initial approach to the BlackMagic house the other day about scanning my film in 4k, and they said the BlackMagic would handle 16mm in 2k, a point which seems to have been verified by what I've read online since (I'm learning fast.)

 

But I want to scan my film in 4k. I'm not going to do all this with this film again anytime soon, or maybe at all, so I want to go to the highest resolution of today that is good enough to archive the film and which also doubles as future/pending home entertainment resolution.

 

So my first question is -- to any Australians here, do you know of any production houses in this country with the Goldeneye or other 4k scanning facility for 16mm?

 

Actually, that's the only question to begin with : ) But I'm also open to any other general comments or questions. Thanks.


  • 0


Abel Cine

Metropolis Post

rebotnix Technologies

Aerial Filmworks

CineLab

Opal

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Wooden Camera

Glidecam

Visual Products

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Paralinx LLC

Tai Audio

The Slider

Broadcast Solutions Inc

FJS International, LLC

Technodolly

CineTape

Rig Wheels Passport

Ritter Battery

Willys Widgets

FJS International, LLC

CineLab

Tai Audio

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineTape

Ritter Battery

Wooden Camera

Metropolis Post

Abel Cine

Rig Wheels Passport

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Visual Products

Willys Widgets

Aerial Filmworks

Opal

Technodolly

Paralinx LLC

Glidecam

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

rebotnix Technologies

The Slider