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tri-x says 160t and 200d?


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#1 Eric Cepela

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 07:12 PM

how can a film be two different speeds? i'm guessing it means that the 85 filter reduces light intensity so it's to be treated as 160 when using that filter?

 

is there any reason to use the 85 filter with tri-x? does it give better contrast when filming in cool light or something? 

 

my 814 auto zoom manual says it does 200t, but maxes out at 160d. does that mean it's going to read my tri-x cartridge incorrectly when i do not have the 85 filter deployed? as unless someone tells me good reason otherwise, i think i'd shoot without no matter what color light i'm working in. 

 

also just in the name of not creating a bunch of threads, is there any specific way i am supposed to store a partially used cartridge or anything else i need to know about swapping cartridges out? with still film, i can have a back full of film sitting in my 60 degree fahrenheit living room for a month and the results look as good as if i'd taken it out of my fridge, shot, and developed same day. any difference with super 8 film? i'm nervous about putting back in fridge because of condensation. also relevant to what to do with used cartridges before i have the number i want to send in for processing. 

 

thanks!


Edited by Eric Cepela, 16 February 2017 - 07:25 PM.

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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 09:42 PM

No, it's not a difference due to using a filter.

 

It's because even though it is panchromatic stock (sensitive to all visible wavelengths), it is less sensitive to redder wavelengths than it is to bluer wavelengths so if you are using a meter and shooting the stock in daylight without a red-orange filter, then you should use the faster rating.

 

However, the difference between 200 ASA and 160 ASA is only one-third of a stop.  If you are shooting in daylight and your camera only will rate the stock at 160 ASA, you could manually stop down another 1/3-stop from whatever the camera meter wants to shoot at, but the truth is that Tri-X has such a narrow latitude that half the time, you have to watch your shadow detail (but the other half of the time, you have to watch your overexposure detail...)  I'd probably just let it expose at 160 ASA unless you are shooting light-toned objects.  And if you use the orange 85 filter, then it's OK to rate it at 160 ASA.

 

Color "contrast" filters don't really increase contrast so much as they shift the relative exposure in different wavelengths, red-orange-yellow filters cutting more blue wavelengths compared to redder ones, hence why skies go darker and faces go lighter (and lips can look paler).  Since shadows outdoors have more blue in them, the redder filters will make the shadows go darker, thus increasing contrast.  But indoors, if the shadows were the same color as the highlights, then a red filter would not make the shadows go darker -- however, they will still make faces go lighter so again, the contrast may look different.


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#3 Eric Cepela

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 11:04 PM

alright, that's interesting. and something i can handle now that i know what's up. i very much appreciate the thorough and easy to understand explanation.

 

shaking my head at some of the convenience features on these cameras. notches? give me a freaking iso dial, canon.


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#4 Martin Baumgarten

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 11:20 PM

Everything David says above, and I'll add my own information which might help also.   

 

[1].   ALL panchromatic films (those sensitive to all main spectrums of visible light, being Red, Green and Blue) lose some of their sensitivity under artifical lighting (tunsgten etc illumination) due to the lack of Blue and UV light to which silver halide crystals are more inherently sensitive to.  It's not super drastic, but it's there, and it helps to be aware of it for certain critical shots in some situations.

 

[2].   The Filter variation, the change in effective filmspeed due to the builtin Filter in most Super 8mm cameras, is due to the light being reduced such as when you wear sunglasses.  This is NOT the variation between Daylight and Tungsten lighting as that is due to the lack of blue and UV light. It contributes but is slight.  Thus, when using Tri-X Reversal, in Daylight, it's ISO 200 WITHOUT Filter, or about ISO 130 WITH Filter.  In Tungsten/Artificial light, WITHOUT Filter it's ISO 160, and you really wouldn't want to use the Filter in artificial light anyhow, as it would reduce effective filmspeed to about ISO 100.  In cameras that meter automatically, they will rate TRI-X Reversal at ISO 160 Daylight WITHOUT Filter and ISO 100 WITH Filter.  As David mentions, it's not that big of a deal for most things, but if you have manual exposure control, you can tweak your exposure for some shots to compensate.  I have never really seen a big need for this in most of my usage for TRI-X Reversal amongst many different Super 8mm cameras.

 

[3].  When using Black & White panchromatic films, either negatiave or reversal, in both still and motion picture applications, it's often a good idea to use some form of filtration in daylight shots where there will be expanses of sky and clouds.  A medium yellow has been the usual recommendation, and also an orange filter, as these will help render a more 'normal' tonal range of the sky as well as allow tonal separation of blue sky and any cloud detail.  You can get more dramatic using deep yellow, or various red filters.  Otherwise, due to the inherent blue and UV sensitivity of black & white panchromatic films, the sky will tend to wash out to near white and any clouds will appear faint and weak compared to how they looked when you were shooting the film.  The built in Wratten 85 orange Daylight Conversion Filter found in most Super 8mm cameras was originally intended to correct the Color of Super 8mm Color films, since in the beginning they were all Tungsten balanced.  KODAK also recommended using this filter for B&W films, especially PLUS-X Reversal, for the very sky and cloud reasons I just mentioned, as well as reducing the effective filmspeed so the camera can record in Bright Light.  Otherwise it would mean having to shoot at F/45 or smaller, something most Super 8mm cameras can't do and due to aperture issues you really wouldn't want to.  This also works fine for TRI-X Reversal as well.  I often use TWO Filters, a 4X Neutral Density Fiter AND the built in 85 Filter, which gets that ISO 200 TRI-X film down to about ISO 20, great for bright daylight shooting (just like using KODACHROME which was ISO 25 in Daylight).  You can use any strength ND Filter to reduce the light of course for whatever your exposure needs are.  Doing this will allow you to shoot with any high speed film in bright light, even the ISO 500 Color Neg, without any issues. But that's another topic.

 

[4].  Lastly, regarding your concern about how to store partially used cartridges.  If in a high dust and humidity region, you can put them into ziplock bags.  Otherwise, you're fine in normal room temp just like you treat still film.  The only exception here would be, if you plan to not use the film within the next 3-6 months, I would put them into good quality ziplock bags in a room with normal humidity if possible, and then store them in the fridge.  If you think you won't get to them for 6 months to a year or longer, then freeze them.   Aside from very high heat and high humidity regions, you'll be fine.  Just bagging them to avoid getting any dust or crude into the cartridge's film gate will help significantly and that would be your immediate concern.  It's great to be able to switch out cartridges for different reasons.  For example wanting to create an effect of flipping from a positive to a negative universe etc and back again later.  I know, so much of this is now done in post, but for those of us that still project our movies, it's great to be able to do all kinds of special effects right on the film, lap dissolves, fades, superimpositions etc.  Just MAKE SURE to note the footage already filmed BEFORE you remove the cartridge, and then write that or what's left on the cartridge or on a piece of tape affixed to it, so you'll remember how much footage remains to use.

 

That's it, have fun, make movies and enjoy the image quality of your CANON 814 zoom.


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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 12:53 AM

Yes, good point -- 200 ASA in daylight or 160 ASA in tungsten, those ratings don't include filtering.  If you use the 85 filter outdoors, you'd have to compensate for the 2/3-stop light loss on top of the 160 ASA rating for shooting in what is now effectively tungsten-balanced light.

 

Testing would be a good idea...


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#6 Eric Cepela

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 01:14 AM

very much appreciate all the additional info. happy i got this figured out for the weekend. going to pick up a yellow filter for daytime shooting. and nice to hear the film isn't too fragile. 

 

martin, i assume you have modified your 814 or you cut a notch into your cartridges? because i just put my first tri-x cartridge in and the filter switch is disabled just like with 50D. 

 

got a 346a and absolutely plan on projecting. 


Edited by Eric Cepela, 17 February 2017 - 01:17 AM.

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#7 Martin Baumgarten

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 04:32 PM

Hi, yes, I always modify the TRI-X cartridge by cutting out a "Filter Notch".  Easy to do, just use some needle nose pliers and snip out part of the lower front cartridge wall where it pushes in the Filter Removal Button in the film chamber.  If you can just cut down a bit on two sides with a single edge razor blade and then just bend off a square piece to make your notch, that works fine.  Anyhow, this way, once done, you can make use of the builtin 85 orange filter, which truly works great in Daylight shots to render decent sky tonal density and cloud detail(if there's any clouds). If not, I still use it, as then my film isn't so highly sensitive due to the light reduction, and I still get sky tone versus a washed out white sky if not using it.  Then using the Filter Switch on the camera body, move the position the Tungsten or Without Filter position, and you can then just screw on whatever type of filter you would like. 

 

If you have other Filters (Red, Green, Yellow etc), you could shoot just a few feet with each and see how it affects the tones.  This visual reference that you shoot yourself, will help you in the future.  Also, even if the film is processed as a Negative (which can be done as either a nice continous tone negative or high contrast negative depending which developer you use if you do it yourself or have a lab do it) or in Sepia Tone Reversal (which is a rich brown tone image, not sure what labs might offer this, but I do here), the same visual effects of filtration affect the tones.  Of courses if processed as a B&W Negative, you won't see the tonal changes until it's transferred and flipped to a positive, but they're there. 

 

NOTE:  If you ever want to shoot TRI-X and have it processed as a Negative, you will have to adjust your Exposure Index from ISO 200 to ISO 125, and then all other aspects of light reduction apply off that ISO rating.   And, if shooting as a Negative, you can also easily change the Exposure Index via PUSH or PULL processing, thus rating the film higher such as at ISO 200 or ISO 400 or ISO 800 (with notable changes in film grain structure and image contrast) or lower to say ISO 50 or ISO 25 (with finer grain structure and also lower image contrast).

 

Lastly:  Filmspeed boosting via PUSH or lowering via PULL is also doable for Reversal Processing, but with differing image artifacts.  In the beginning here though, stick to the factory ratings and work off that range for your shooting and adjusting for any filtration.  Once you feel comfortable with that, and then want to experiment with other possibilties, you'll already have a feel for how TRI-X works for you and what your camera is capable of producing.

 

Finally:  Great to hear that you plan on projecting the film!  Nothing like seeing it up on the screen.  If you're able to before to have it digitized or do it yourself, that would be good too, as then you'd have it prior to the film getting any run scratches or tram lines etc.  But, I have tons of film that I've yet to transfer and they have been played many times over the years and still look good.  Just make sure the projector's film path and film gate and pressure plate are clean, wipe the down with 91% isopropyl alcohol, and then, using a piece of clean white cotton flannel cloth, spray some pure silicone into the cloth, wait 5 to 10 minutes until the propellant has evaporated, and wipe the Pressure Plate, Film Gate, and any Film Guides with it.  This will make the film path nice and clean and slick, allowing the film to glide through it easily with a steady image projection.  You can also use a Film Cleaner with Lubricant Solution to do the same thing as above.  But I mention the foregoing in case you don't have any, since the other items are easily obtained locally at most super market shops.


Edited by Martin Baumgarten, 17 February 2017 - 04:38 PM.

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#8 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 04:49 PM

If you add an external filter, the internal meter will compensate for the light loss. I usually try and stop down the 1.3rd in daylight, just because I prefer my B&W a little richer. I'm not sure what camera you are using but the Canon autozoom silent models have manual exposure control, the XLS sound models also include a exposure compensation dial, + or - 1/3 increments to a full stop either way. The new Super 8 cameras coming out this year will have ASA settings for all speeds. 

 

When it comes to swapping carts or storing exposed carts, I put directly into a zip lock from the camera to avoid dust and dirt from infiltration the cart. I use freezer bags for fridge or freezer storage, open or sealed. Just make sure they're not full of static. 


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#9 Eric Cepela

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 11:19 AM

cut a notch in mine as well just to have the option. 

 

i absolutely need the filters. it's impossible to shoot in daylight. even with the 85 it overexposes. even in evening. they'er in the mail.

 

got a canon 518 as well because i want something smaller, it looked unused, came with original case, two unopened wein mercury-replacement meter batteries (which is use for all kinds of cameras), and a recently purchased unopened vision3 500t roll. all for $25 usd down the street from me on craigslist.

 

also have a chinon pocket dart on the way. payed nothing for it on ebay. manual and case. expect it not to work (untested), but i go from guitars, to typewriters, to stereos, to cameras, etc. i can fix it unless it's junked. will be really nice to have a point and shoot jacket pocket size camera. 

 

shot a test roll of tri-x with each over the weekend (now in a ziplock bag in my nice and cool basement). can't wait to get them back and test out the 346a, which is currently great for shadow puppets. 

 

thanks again everyone for all the help!


Edited by Eric Cepela, 20 February 2017 - 11:24 AM.

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