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Owner Operator or Renter or what?

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#21 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:41 AM

But sure its every individuals choice.. if I,d bought a house instead of the beta sp.. about the same price at time in the UK. ! . maybe i could have retired by now..   but then I wouldn't be so grumpy ,twisted and such a great sense of humor ..


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#22 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:46 AM

I don't think too many FS7 owners will find themselves shooting for the BBC. Very rarefied atmosphere.

 

To put this in perspective, a year or two back I was offered a feature - a freebie, of course, but okay, it's a feature, it's three and a half weeks, I'll do it. It was very low end, someone I'd known for years was acting in it, they wanted a free C300. Very definitely a C300. Nothing else would do, for some reason. I couldn't give them £2500 of rental for nothing so I had to say no.

 

Eventually, they found someone to do it.

 

That person was a BSC member.

 

At that point, I gave up.


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#23 John E Clark

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 01:27 PM

For me $5K USD is sort of the tipping point... under that amount, I'd say buy the camera package. Over that amount, one would have to have a real business income that could be counted on. That, or someone who is very very self confident they can beat the bushes for work to make the expenditure pay.

 

Even for the Wife's wedding business (stills...) we did not buy the top of the line Nikons, either in the olden days of Film film cameras, or the modern Digital world. We did spend on some lenses...

 

Of course she did buy a Hasselblad package when she was young, single, and fancy free... and we did up grade the basic 80mm lens + body over the years... but she did use them extensively for her wedding coverage, ranging from formals to candids. (I was the only one who ever used the 250mm lens... for those back of the church documentation shots... which no one ever looked at...)


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#24 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:58 PM

Under 5K isnt going to get you much in the video world.. the OP is not a beginner and says he wants to move up to higher level work.. this isnt gong to be under 5K camera packages ..  personally I think buying the gear pushes you to get that work..and makes eco sense.. tax deductible etc.. I could be wrong.. always a first time..


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#25 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 08:45 PM

I'm always a little leary of buying gear unless it's really cheap/suplimental to other packages, or top top of the line- but it really comes down to the type of work you do and what they demand. I could rock a C300MKii all day and night if I was working Corporate/Doc/Youtube/Broadcast/Reality type stuff, but it wouldn't do as well in the commercial, music video, or features world. Likewise an Alexa would be great for all of it, but you'd have to be getting commercial work to really make it worthwhile in terms of making money back.


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#26 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 09:02 PM

Yes for sure.. the old saying.. buy the camera you need,not the camera you want... 

 

But the OP specifically said he/his company wanted to mover into higher level work.. so I doubt a pocket cam or a 5D/ Fs5 is going to help their cause .. I doubt they need an Alexa Studio either.. 


Edited by Robin R Probyn, 09 March 2017 - 09:05 PM.

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#27 Mark Kenfield

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 09:46 PM

Yes for sure.. the old saying.. buy the camera you need,not the camera you want... 

 

But the OP specifically said he/his company wanted to mover into higher level work.. so I doubt a pocket cam or a 5D/ Fs5 is going to help their cause .. I doubt they need an Alexa Studio either.. 

 

Don't be ridiculous... clearly everyone needs an Alexa Studio!  :D


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#28 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:11 PM

Only at your level sir.. I was once asked to shoot a one man band ,no sound shoot.. with an Alexa.. forget it.. !!  like lugging a small car around.. 


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#29 Mark Kenfield

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:23 PM

Only at your level sir.. I was once asked to shoot a one man band ,no sound shoot.. with an Alexa.. forget it.. !!  like lugging a small car around.. 

 

Ouch! Yeah, mine certainly doesn't come out to play without a 1st and 2nd AC in place. That's why I keep a body-armoured F3 for the smaller jobs.


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#30 John E Clark

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:34 PM

Under 5K isnt going to get you much in the video world.. the OP is not a beginner and says he wants to move up to higher level work.. this isnt gong to be under 5K camera packages ..  personally I think buying the gear pushes you to get that work..and makes eco sense.. tax deductible etc.. I could be wrong.. always a first time..

 

It does depend on the individual's assessment of their near term income... for an anticipated $100K USD income, I'd say go for $10K equipment... or about 10% of the anticipated income.

 

One can also go the 'rent/lease/own' analysis... and so if one is spending $20K USD/year on rental, again go for the $10K buy. Part of the issue with rent/lease/own is while the purchase may be 'cheaper', in general, one can rent the 'latest and greatest', and not be locked into last year's technology.

 

Also there's the idea that taking one choice in an investment, precludes using that money in a different, and perhaps more rewarding investment. Spending $10K on equipment, does satisfy one goal, but spending $10K  a better store front address, could be more rewarding... but then could be a bust... that's the problem with investment and risk analysis.

 

So, that's my kind of reasoning for under $5K buy... at the very least one has a set of reasonable equipment while one is seeking employment in a paying field other than photography...


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#31 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 02:15 AM

But what kit ? ,for the op,s plan to move up to better paying shoots.. he's already working in this industry ..you just wont have the gear to get those better shoots.. at that price level..this might get you a decent stills package..I dont really know TBH..but video gear ..its a tiny budget.. a good Mattbox can cost close to half of that.. and thats just doc/corp style ... you,ll need a "real" camera.. S35mm sensor..it will have to do 4K these days .. pro audio inputs.. a 100mm bowl tripod .. LED lights.. some diff frames..

 

Im not saying this is a starters kit.. but the OP says he wants to move up to higher paid doc/corp shoots..  your not going to get any where near that for under 5K..  not sure your last comment.. I don't think the OP is in this situation .. possibly we are talking at cross purposes ..


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#32 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 03:21 AM

Much depends on the local market, but for what could be termed middle ground these days I would assume you're currently talking about FS7 or similar camera, 


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#33 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 04:12 AM

Yes agreed... I cant speak for the OP.. but I shoot alot of mid level corps for US companies ..the type it seems he wants to do..  the Fs7 has taken over from the C300 in a big way.. alot is shot 4K for crop,stable, creepy zooms I hate :)..  its been a boost for F5 /55 owners too..as far as XAVC being adopted by all Post Houses.. and known about... C300 Mk II is out there too.. a bit late to the game.. as most C300 owners have already jumped to Fs7 or second hand F5..for 4K.. I know many who have.. 

 

The Fs7 II with the much better mount.. and all the new "budget" real cine lenses that are coming out now are changing things a bit for the better I think.. interestingly the new hot item lenses out in that market .. the Fujinon MK Cine Zooms 18-55 and 50-135.. are only E mount.. so far..   basically being made only for Fs7  A7 series .. owners.. apparently they found over some period, that over 2/3 of all camera,s sold were E mount..!.. 


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#34 Artyom Zakharenko

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 03:21 PM

im thinking buying an alexa mini, but only because i have 2 big projects coming up that will return the investment.. 

i dont have a camera yet, but i really wonder if owning one - actually will bring you more work


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#35 Mark Kenfield

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 09:12 PM

im thinking buying an alexa mini, but only because i have 2 big projects coming up that will return the investment.. 

i dont have a camera yet, but i really wonder if owning one - actually will bring you more work

 

It certainly seems to be the most popular 'pro' level camera at the moment. And Arri have just released a new 'studio' cage for it which looks to solve a lot of the issues of using it in an A-camera configuration.

It does have some seriously frustrating aspects ergonomically (due to the fact it was designed to simply sit in gimbal rigs and on drones). But with workarounds, the light weight and the internal NDs do make it very appealing.

 

On my last two jobs, clients have specifically requested '4k' Alexa. Make of that what you will, but it's the first time I've encountered such requests, and it perhaps suggests a trend.

That said, we ended up shooting 2k Alexa on the first one (with stills instead of '4k' footage for their post stuff), and the second shoot has ended up moving over to the Red Weapon (to better tie in with some previous segments they've done).


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#36 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 02:38 AM

So the big question.. when is Arri going to make a 4K sensor camera..or do they not need to as so far they pretty much have the high end market.. movies for sure anyway.. or will the Netflick /Amazon and no doubt Google/FB /Alibaba et el all lining up to do the same .. force their hand..

 

Or will production people thinking Alexa is 4K swing if for a few years more .. :).. I was just shooting a corp in 4K (Sony F5) and somehow in conversation I told the Dir that the Alexa was no where near 4K and he almost fell off his chair .. he just presumed it was  and had no idea it wasnt ..


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#37 Mark Kenfield

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 03:53 AM

Well obviously they'll make a >4k sensor eventually (probably something around 5-6k so that they can downsample for for 'proper' 4:4:4 4k (just like the current sensor is 3k for a perfect 2k output).

But at the moment, I think it's highly unlikely we'll see one in the next 12 months **I'm going to jump into rampant speculation from this point forward** Unless they perhaps create a new class of Alexa altogether and put a Vistavision-sized version of the current Alev III sensor into the body). That'd give them a true 4k sensor, appeal to the large-format madness that seems to have gripped the world, and mostly avoid pissing off the huge number of people who have just recently laid down lots of cash on Minis.

The bigger issue is data. 

Using Arri's current uncompressed raw workflow is tough, seriously tough. And that's just for the 2.8k sensor. On Alexa65 shoots it's a mammoth task, only made possible because the budgets required to rent gear as expensive as the Alexa65, allows for the sheer data-processing grunt to get it done. I doubt anyone's shooting ProRes on those shoots.

Moving that much data around on lowlier shoots than Alexa65 jobbies, is simply never going to happen. There's a reason the vast majority of Alexa-shot features and TV shows still shoot ProRes.

 

So what happens? Do Arri have to change up their codecs and reconsider adding compression to their raw recordings? In order to make the material processable for most shows out there, they'd kinda have to. And changing up the workflow is a big deal, as it's still to this day, one of the camera's strongest selling points.

Change is coming, that's indisputable, but exactly what form it'll take. I'll be very interested to see.

Also, although Netflix and Amazon are pushing 4k hard. I did hear that Amazon have recently relaxed their 4k requirement to allow their own original productions to shoot on Alexa. 


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#38 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 04:12 AM

Yes I agree re the over sample ..I think the new F5/55 will have to have this too.. to get a "true"4K image.. or at least  you can have the option if you need it.. then leaving the Fs7 as the doc/corp level camera.. 

I think Arri have to do something soon.. great camera and look no denying it.. but now an old sensor and prores also long in the tooth and data heavy/in efficient ... the newer Sony RAW files are not much bigger than Prores HQ..  

 

Have mentioned it before.. but Hedge for Mac has really changed my evenings on 4K shoots without a DIT.. in that I can now eat with the rest of the crew and not stay up all night down loading footage..! recent shoot we shot alot of 4K and slo mo.. about 13 hours over 6 days.. with hedge its about 16 mins to down load 1hr i.e. 1 X 128GB SxS card .. its smoking hot fast compared to other software.. thats going to be important in the future as files get bigger and bigger even in the doc, corp world.. 


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#39 Mark Kenfield

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 04:35 AM

Yeah, certainly all big considerations.

However, I don't think we're going to see ProRes going anywhere until there's a new drag-and-drop alternative.

 

I don't know why, but there still isn't a single mastering format out there that matches ProRes's ultimate trick of a drag-an-drop file structure.

No subfolder structures to worry about, instant playback right there in your browser, the ability to rename your files to whatever you want with zero consequences.

It remains, hands down, the simplest and most elegant workflow that we have. It's the only format that's managed to fulfill the dream of a proper file-based digital workflow. And that's the one lesson that literally every other codec designer has failed to learn. It's where every other camera manufacturer (bar Blackmagic) has gone wrong.

And I think that until someone comes up with something that's the same, but better, we won't see the industry switching over.


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#40 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 04:57 AM

Yeah, certainly all big considerations.

However, I don't think we're going to see ProRes going anywhere until there's a new drag-and-drop alternative.

 

I don't know why, but there still isn't a single mastering format out there that matches ProRes's ultimate trick of a drag-an-drop file structure.

No subfolder structures to worry about, instant playback right there in your browser, the ability to rename your files to whatever you want with zero consequences.

It remains, hands down, the simplest and most elegant workflow that we have. It's the only format that's managed to fulfill the dream of a proper file-based digital workflow. And that's the one lesson that literally every other codec designer has failed to learn. It's where every other camera manufacturer (bar Blackmagic) has gone wrong.

And I think that until someone comes up with something that's the same, but better, we won't see the industry switching over.

 

 

Yes I guess so.. thats why it was originally built as an edit/post only codec I believe.. 


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