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Simple lighting in an industrial space


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#1 Francesco Marullo

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 02:06 PM

Hi there,

I'm working as a DOP on this projects, a dramatic projects.

 

So, I've shot to two person (sitted on chairs, one behind one) inside a space with a big windows, like 4x4 meters, at the background.

 

I would like to make a natural light on them, very soft but natural.

 

In camera, at right side of the shot I would like to put a Vistabeam 600 to ultrabounce 6'x6' frame and filtred by quarter grid cloth 6'x6', to have a key light on right side of face's actors then put a bounceboard or a white cloth oon boom "T" at the left side.

 

I would like to notice you about that we've a bright background, sunny (in Italy, in this month, we have a 16/22 of iris (at 800ASA and 180 of angle),

 

the very question is: is it okay? I've to underexposure his faces for one stop than the windows to have a crispy images or same or more? do you have some reference photo?

 

ah, I've to shot with blackmagic micro cameras.

 

 

Thank you very much, cinematographers!

 

Frank.

 


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#2 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 04:33 PM

Trying to balance an interior with a sunny exterior requires quite a lot of light, usually small HMIs. I think you will struggle to get enough light out of the Vistabeam, particularly after bouncing and diffusing it. I would try using just the diffusion, and get the lamp as close to the edge of frame as you can. Depending on the look you want, you could try underexposing the faces by a stop, and letting the windows blow out a little while retaining some detail.

 

A 1.2kw HMI maybe more useful than the Vistabeam.


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#3 Francesco Marullo

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 06:14 PM

Trying to balance an interior with a sunny exterior requires quite a lot of light, usually small HMIs. I think you will struggle to get enough light out of the Vistabeam, particularly after bouncing and diffusing it. I would try using just the diffusion, and get the lamp as close to the edge of frame as you can. Depending on the look you want, you could try underexposing the faces by a stop, and letting the windows blow out a little while retaining some detail.
 
A 1.2kw HMI maybe more useful than the Vistabeam.

Are you talking about fresnel? That it can help to concentrate the light in the center of frame of diffusion, isn't true?
Because the vistabeam 600 have more power light and beam than 1.2 hmi (vistabeam have same power of 4000w than 1.2kw, is it correct?)

I've written that there are two person on set, a 1.2hmi probably will make a problem because it make too much thin of area of beam, isn't true?

Sorry for my bad English..

Edited by Francesco Marullo, 06 April 2017 - 06:17 PM.

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#4 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 07:30 PM

You get the brightest daylight-balanced lights that you can afford and provide power to with your budget.... and once you've done that, you just have to live with the tools at your disposal.  If the big windows are to one side of the frame, you can use an ND grad filter (like a soft-edged ND6 grad) to bring down the windows, and sometimes using a double net scrim on a frame outside can help knock down the intensity by a stop as long as the sun isn't hitting the scrim, washing it out.  The scrim will diffuse the background view though, but if you just use it for close-ups, it might help. You can even just ND gel the area of the windows that you see in the close-ups.

 

Otherwise, try to think of what you'd do if you weren't allowed to use any lights at all rather than thinking of lighting as solving the problem.  How would a Terrence Malick shoot deal with it?  Probably they'd stage close to the windows so that the exposure fall-off was less extreme, then underexpose the foreground a little, overexpose the view a little.


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#5 Francesco Marullo

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 06:45 AM

Okay, may I should use a lee scrim on windows to let down a stop.
Today I was there, to scouting, and it was very bright location (everywhere are white wall) so I could remove the white fixture for fill but I'm sure that I've to make a powerful source light to have a good 50ire on his face at f/11.
An AS18, at 4meter to actor's face have a f/32 directly.

Can I use it on 6'x6' diffuse half quarter cloth then diffusing another 6'x6' light quarter cloth, what do you think about? Or is too less? How many stops will bring down with this system? Will I have a f/11 on his actor face at 4 meter?

I will post some photo of location.

Edited by Francesco Marullo, 07 April 2017 - 06:50 AM.

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#6 Francesco Marullo

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 09:21 AM

http://imgur.com/a/dzuh6

 

You can see photos there, in link.

 

For now, I've been there but was cloudly at exterior, naturally it's perfect (soft), then I saw some skylight at the roof, with clouds was perfect.

But probably, we'll have a sunny day (11 april). What do you think about my system:

- from left edge: I should put an arrisun 1.8kw, hitting to diffusion 250 frame, then to butterfly 6'x6' with half grid texture to have a soft light but an high output light.

- I should put arrisun 1.8kw from left (of camera) oriented to right side hitting ultrabounce 6x6 then diffused by a quarter light grid cloth 6'x6'. (so, with this method I'll have a great big beam but with a risk of dispertion and a low output of light)

 

ps: Sorry, for now there is a backdrop over the window.

 

Thanks!!

 

Frank


Edited by Francesco Marullo, 07 April 2017 - 09:24 AM.

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#7 Michael Rodin

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 11:32 AM

I would like to notice you about that we've a bright background, sunny (in Italy, in this month, we have a 16/22 of iris (at 800ASA and 180 of angle),

Do you mean the normal exposure for a window view? It should be more like T16 at 25ASA. You won't balance that with a reflected-then-diffused Vistabeam.

 

Instead of bouncing an AS18 I'd shine an M18 directly into a 6x6. Basically the same light quality but more output.


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#8 Francesco Marullo

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 12:21 PM

Do you mean the normal exposure for a window view? It should be more like T16 at 25ASA. You won't balance that with a reflected-then-diffused Vistabeam.

 

Instead of bouncing an AS18 I'd shine an M18 directly into a 6x6. Basically the same light quality but more output.

Okay,

25ASA and T16 usually, receveid!

 

So, which one of texture I should use for diffusion? an half grid texture, isn't true?

Then for left side of face's actory, I thought it's useful a beadbeard 6x3 from floor.

 

Can you give me an advice for gel on M18?

 

Thanks,

Frank.


Edited by Francesco Marullo, 07 April 2017 - 12:22 PM.

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#9 Guy Holt

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 04:10 PM

... I should put arrisun 1.8kw from left (of camera) oriented to right side hitting ultrabounce 6x6 then diffused by a quarter light grid cloth 6'x6'. (so, with this method I'll have a great big beam but with a risk of dispertion and a low output of light)

 

A M18 book light won’t provide sufficient output to balance windows without treating the windows. Anything short of a 6k Par will require that you put Rosco Scrim or ND on the windows. For example we lit an episode of  “Electronic Field Trip,” with then First Lady Laura Bush leading a 4th grade class garrisoned in the Mess Hall of the Navy Barracks overlooking the USS Constitution.

 

bushtitlepage.jpg

Then First Lady Laura Bush leading  a 4th grade class in a science experiment.

 

Given the importance of their special guest and the scenic setting outside the windows, the show's producers wanted the USS Constitution to be seen clearly through the windows. Under the circumstances it was a difficult task to create flattering light on the First Lady, while balancing the interior lighting to the exterior, so that the USS Constitution would be seen clearly through the windows.

 

bushfilmstrip3lg.jpg

 Navy Mess Hall overlooking  the USS Constitution and Boston Skyline seen clearly out the windows.

 

What I did was rig Kino Flo Flat Head 80 fixtures (4’- 8 tube fluorescent lights) flush against the ceiling over each table as high frontal key lights for the participants around the tables.  The lights were then dressed with black show card so that they looked as if they were permanent fixtures.

 

bushfilmstrip4lg.jpg

 Opposite wall of Mess Hall with Flathead 80s and book lights.

 

To fill in this soft high frontal key light, we then rigged 6’x6’ book lights with 4k HMI Pars. A light source that large creates a wonderful soft light that doesn’t throw shadows, which was important because cameramen moved constantly back and forth in front of the book lights. Not only were the book lights very clean looking, with the light and hardware hidden from view, but if seen reflected in the large plate glass windows, they looked like a window on the opposite side of the room. The final ingredient for success was a layer of ND 9 gel on the plate glass windows overlooking the USS Constitution to bring the exterior levels down three stops and in line with the pumped up interior.

 

bushfilmstrip4.25lg.jpg

A 4k HMI par bounced into ultrabounce and then through silk makes up  a super soft booklight.

 

Where it took a 4k Par book light to provide just a fill level after gelling the windows with ND9, you can see that you need a lot more light than you will get out of a M18 book light  to balance interiors to exteriors. The problem with using larger HMIs (2.5-6kw) is usually powering them. If you know how, you can plug them into wall outlets that are available on most locations.

 

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip, Lighting Rentals & Sales in Boston


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#10 Francesco Marullo

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 04:20 AM

A M18 book light wont provide sufficient output to balance windows without treating the windows. Anything short of a 6k Par will require that you put Rosco Scrim or ND on the windows. For example we lit an episode of  Electronic Field Trip, with then First Lady Laura Bush leading a 4th grade class garrisoned in the Mess Hall of the Navy Barracks overlooking the USS Constitution.
 


bushtitlepage.jpg

Then First Lady Laura Bush leading  a 4th grade class in a science experiment.

 
Given the importance of their special guest and the scenic setting outside the windows, the show's producers wanted the USS Constitution to be seen clearly through the windows. Under the circumstances it was a difficult task to create flattering light on the First Lady, while balancing the interior lighting to the exterior, so that the USS Constitution would be seen clearly through the windows.
 


bushfilmstrip3lg.jpg

 Navy Mess Hall overlooking  the USS Constitution and Boston Skyline seen clearly out the windows.

 
What I did was rig Kino Flo Flat Head 80 fixtures (4- 8 tube fluorescent lights) flush against the ceiling over each table as high frontal key lights for the participants around the tables.  The lights were then dressed with black show card so that they looked as if they were permanent fixtures.
 


bushfilmstrip4lg.jpg

 Opposite wall of Mess Hall with Flathead 80s and book lights.

 
To fill in this soft high frontal key light, we then rigged 6x6 book lights with 4k HMI Pars. A light source that large creates a wonderful soft light that doesnt throw shadows, which was important because cameramen moved constantly back and forth in front of the book lights. Not only were the book lights very clean looking, with the light and hardware hidden from view, but if seen reflected in the large plate glass windows, they looked like a window on the opposite side of the room. The final ingredient for success was a layer of ND 9 gel on the plate glass windows overlooking the USS Constitution to bring the exterior levels down three stops and in line with the pumped up interior.
 


bushfilmstrip4.25lg.jpg

A 4k HMI par bounced into ultrabounce and then through silk makes up  a super soft booklight.

 
Where it took a 4k Par book light to provide just a fill level after gelling the windows with ND9, you can see that you need a lot more light than you will get out of a M18 book light  to balance interiors to exteriors. The problem with using larger HMIs (2.5-6kw) is usually powering them. If you know how, you can plug them into wall outlets that are available on most locations.
 
Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip, Lighting Rentals & Sales in Boston
What a wonderful post! :D

Okay, I think it's a very bright lighting but useful!

I want shot naturally: you see a window, you should put a fake bouncing of sun (a flathead 80 or skypanel s-60 leaning on the floor with a frame 3x3 250 (or bounced by beadboard then diffuse ).
I think a 18hmi isn't a very bright to have a super detail on the face's actors but could help me. What do you think about 2500kw of arri (called D25 arri)? Because it have more output than M18 (D25 it's a very old lamp).

Francesco

Edited by Francesco Marullo, 09 April 2017 - 04:29 AM.

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#11 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 11:57 AM

What Guy is describing is a fairly extreme balancing of interior and exterior, which was for a specific purpose. For a more natural look, you may want to let the windows be overexposed by a couple of stops, and slightly underexpose your interior. Playing your actors one stop underexposed would look pretty natural compared to a hot exterior.

 

You'll get slightly more light out of an Arri 2.5kw Fresnel (1600fc @ 30ft full spot) than an M18 (1200fc @ 30ft full spot) according to the Arri photometric calc, but there are other factors, such as the age of the globe and condition of the fresnel lens which will affect the actual output.


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#12 Francesco Marullo

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 04:26 PM

Hello everybody,
I made it but in the way for super naturalistic light.

I used two of wind ups (with wheels) with junior arm (that can load max 10kg for 3 meter of extension) and putted 2 skypanel (once for a windup) at the side of window, when I was in cu I used a diffusion frame, balancing light for exterior. Then used black solid at the opposite side of windows.

Was perfect and dramatic. (Maybe too much but was good for this projects)

Thank you for everybody!
See ya next proj

IMG_0085.jpg

Edited by Francesco Marullo, 12 April 2017 - 04:38 PM.

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#13 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 03:28 PM

IMG_0085.jpg


Looks really great!
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#14 Leonardo Brocato

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 03:09 AM

Dear Francesco
beautiful set up, can i ask a question? No gaffer at all? because this kind of things are the life of a gaffer like me...... so next time hire meeeeeeee. D25 it's the 2.5k version of the hmi fresnel line, the evolution of the 2.5 compact hmi i'm not so sure about the amount of light pushed it's more than an M18 because the d25 use a fresnel lens and the reflector of the m18 (wich is a par no lensen) it's a miracle in output, forget about vista beam not even comparable with an arrisun 4k (super sure about that despite what kino says)
also i think it's useless to comparate full spot photometrics because of the differences of the fixtures andbecause i'ts very rare to use full spot an hmi. If you want to talk about this or other set up i would love it because it's my work of every day.
In our language it's also more easy
Grazie a presto e buona pasqua

 

Happy easter guys 


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Metropolis Post

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