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Color temperature with black and white film


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#1 Dominik Muench

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 01:17 AM

Hi,

im shooting a few roles of black and white reversal soon so i was wondering if tungsten and daylight balanced lights look different on b/w film too somehow ?
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 10:25 AM

No, not really other than (1) daylight lights expose the film slightly more, like by 1/3 of a stop, compared to a tungsten light at the same intensity, because b&w film is slightly more sensitive to blue light; (2) the gray tone that colored objects render as can be altered by the color of a light, just like they can by a colored filter on the camera. Warm light with lighten warm-toned objects and darken bluer objects, etc. But unless you are talking about really deeply color gelled lights, it's not going to be significant.

The early sound version of "Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde" used red & blue make-up on the actor's face and switched the lighting on dimmers from red to blue (or the other way) to make the look of his face change on camera. One of the late silent religious epics ("Ben Hur"? "Sign of the Cross"?) did something similar to create the effect of the lepers being cured.
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#3 Sam Wells

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 11:24 AM

Fluoros - red deficient - can look pretty nice sometimes in B&W I've found.

Xenon can look weird, like you used ortho or something.

I'm not sure HMI and tungsten are much different other than the ~ 1/3 stop advantage.

-Sam
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#4 Robert Edge

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 02:44 PM

A semi-related question...

If you use daylight color reversal film uncorrected under tungsten or fluorescent lights, scan the film and desaturate for a black and white final output, will the tungsten or fluorescent lighting affect the black and white image? If so, how?
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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 02:53 PM

Well, fluorescents run the gamut from being near tungsten to near daylight, so you'd have to be specific.

As for a tungsten image on daylight reversal stock, obviously it would be very orangey. Turned b&w, I don't see any problems other than perhaps it would be slightly softer and grainier from being exposed more on the red layer, and blue objects might render darker in tone.
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#6 Robert Edge

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 03:34 PM

David,

Well, I'm about to find out and I'll post the results if anyone is interested.

On Monday, starting around 4:00 a.m., I'm going to do some 6x7 still photos at the Fulton Fish Market in NY. I'm not sure if the lighting is tungsten, fluorescent or both. I'm going to shoot some black and white, but also some uncorrected daylight color reversal or negative, just to see what happens when the color film is scanned and desaturated.
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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 03:37 PM

A more accurate test would be to shoot a tungsten-lit scene on daylight reversal stock, hopefully with a MacBeth color chart, and then shoot it again with the correct 80A filter, and then turn both b&w and look at the differences.
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#8 Robert Edge

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 03:54 PM

That isn't a test I'm going to do between now and Monday, partly because I don't have the time and partly because I'm not concerned about repeatability, but it would be an interesting test, both with reversal and negative film. I might just do it during the course of next week, if only out of curiosity.
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#9 timHealy

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 04:10 PM

Xenon can look weird, like you used ortho or something.



Hey Sam,

I am not familiar with that term. What is "ortho"?

Tim
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#10 Sam Wells

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 06:20 PM

A pharmaceutical company, subsidiary of Johnson & Johnson.

Sorry - Orthochromatic. Essentially sensitive to blue only.

google it ! (you probably get some links to previous discussions here on FilmStocks & Processing in fact)

-Sam
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#11 Dominik Muench

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 07:24 PM

thank you for the help, i was planing on using fluoros :)
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#12 Algis Kemezys

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 09:26 PM

One of the greatest reasons to use Black and white as far as I am concerned is that you can forget all about most color balance. You simply work with light and composition and this is truely relaxing. Color gets involved with so many other things. It can be as much of a distraction as it could be an attraction. Basically when shooting Black and white things can mocve right along from location to location with only an adjustment to the fstop.
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#13 timHealy

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 10:25 PM

Thanks Sam,

I did the search of the site and it became clear. Though I have never done it myself, I have heard and read about shooting with unusaul print stocks and sound stock but somehow I missed (or with age forgot) the term "orthochromatic".

Cheers

Tim
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#14 L K Keerthi Basu

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 10:33 AM

Thanks Sam,

I did the search of the site and it became clear. Though I have never done it myself, I have heard and read about shooting with unusaul print stocks and sound stock but somehow I missed (or with age forgot) the term "orthochromatic".

Cheers

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Actually ORTHOCHROMATIC is sensitive to two colors they are BLUE and GREEN. All the B/W print films are ORTHOCHROMATIC.
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#15 Sam Wells

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 12:36 PM

Well they can drop pretty fast in the blue-green, not much there in pure green.

Interestingly I looked at the spectral sensitivity curve for Agfa's ST8 sound recording film and there's a peak at 625 nm which is orange -- maybe this is why a few folks have tried shooting on it ?

Is there a name for this kind of 'extended range' orthochromatic ?

-Sam
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#16 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 12:50 PM

Kodak sort of separates b&w stocks roughly into blue-sensitive, orthochromatic (blue & green sensitive) and panchromatic.

In fact, all early stocks were blue-senstive, so when they increased the green sensitivity, they called it "orthochromatic" for "correct colors" -- as in now the stock will give you an accurate scene reproduction.

Of course, this was just marketing jargon because people started asking for a stock that was also red sensitive. In truth, it shouldn't have been called "orthochromatic" until it was sensitive to all the colors for a correct tonal reproduction of the scene. But having used that word, they called the new corrected stock "panchromatic" for "all colors."
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#17 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 27 June 2005 - 12:38 PM

The on-line published technical data for Kodak's motion picture films usually includes the film's spectral sensitivity:

http://www.kodak.com...d=0.1.4.4&lc=en

For example:

http://www.kodak.com...1.4.4.8.6&lc=en

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