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Kinoptik without focus ring, what is that?


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#1 Mendes Nabil

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 07:41 PM

Hello everybody! I'll probably get a Kinoptik 35mm 1.3 and couple it with an Arriflex 16s, how does that lens compare to a Zeiss superspeed?

 

This lens has no focus ring and no aperture ring neither, so how does it work? I've read that you can set it to close focus or infinity focus, does that mean that the distance between the subject and the camera has to always be the same (for the close focus configuration) or am i missing something?

 

I've found some modified ones with focus and aperture rings, does someone know where can i get such a modification and how much would that coast?

 

And is this lens any good? I'm planning to shoot at night with an Arriflex 16s, so the 1.3 fastness is really appealing to me..

 

Let me know if you have any trick about this lens please,

 

Thanks!

 

 


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#2 Robert Hart

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Posted 14 May 2017 - 01:59 AM

Perhaps you might define the lens with a little more detail.

There will be qualified and smarter people on this forum who can advise but in the meantime my inferior comments follow below.

By "35mm" I am assuming you are describing the film format the lens is designed for, not its actual focal length. There is as far as I know no Kinoptik 35mm focal length lenses wider than T2.4. That lens has a focus adjustment. There is an ultra wide-angle lens for this format, the Kinoptic Tegea 9.8mm and on my specimen only f1.8 at its widest aperture with no "T" markings. This lens also has a focus ring at the rear. If you were intending to use this lens on an ARRI 16mm camera, you might be better served by the S16mm lens offerings from Optar illumina in 8mm and 9mm which are T1.3 or thereabouts but better at T2 and seem sweetest at around T4. The Kinoptik 9.8mm for 35mm may be unacceptably soft to a 16mm film frame. 

As for Zeiss Superspeed, I have to defer to the knowledge of someone else because I have not used Zeiss superspeed lenses on a 16mm format film or digital cinema camera. Their slower CP2 series for 35mm film/digital cinema returned good sharpness numbers wide-open on the SI2K 16mm format camera which surprised me.

The Kinoptik 5.7mm f1.8 lens has only an aperture ring and no focus adjustment which is as you describe. It is normally collimated to a camera so that sharp focus is about three feet from the focal plane. The extreme depth of field from such a wide-angle lens was deemed at the time to take care of the rest to infinity especially when tighter apertures were used. For slightly sharper results at wide-apertures on the SI2K camera, with the C-Mount version I have, I have collimated the lens mount to infinity focus and either temporarily unscrew the lens slightly forwards in the C-Mount for closer focus or use an external shim in front of the flange face to restore to the normal focus point. ​Forget about focus pulls with camera rolling with this arrangement. Image shifts during the pull are likely.

The Kinoptik 5.7mm ultra wide-angle achieved some revived notoriety after upcoming director, Robert Rodriguez used one to shoot interiors for his film "El Mariachi".

 


Edited by Robert Hart, 14 May 2017 - 02:06 AM.

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#3 Robert Hart

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Posted 14 May 2017 - 02:22 AM

For what it is worth, here is a link to an unscientific test I did with Optars and a 35mm T1.3 Optika Elite lens. The Optika lens was not the Mk4 version. I did not caption the image from each lens. The Optika lens image was indistinguishable from the Optar lenses but was sweetest at T4 - T5.6 compared to the Optars which were sweetest in the zone T2 - T4.

To force the exposure to be within the aperture sweet spot of the lenses, I used ND and IR filters and retained the 1/50th sec shutter on the SI2K camera.


Edited by Robert Hart, 14 May 2017 - 02:24 AM.

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#4 Mendes Nabil

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 02:52 AM

Thank you Robert! I've never heard about Optar lenses before, but they seem to be great, i'll make some research about them!

 

As for the kinoptik, i'm talking about a 35mm (focal length) t1.3, with an Arri standard mount :

 

https://new.liveauct...-c1970-no-46654

 

Does someone know something about it? It seems to be a 16mm format lens, but someone is using it with his Leica M after a rehousing..

https://www.facebook...607546759460293

 

This lens is pretty intriguing.. 


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#5 Dom Jaeger

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 06:14 AM

That lens is a rare and expensive collector's piece, I don't actually think it's in Arri standard mount either. A 35mm focal length is at the long end for 16mm format and would be unusable without a focussing mount. Can't see an iris ring either.. it may be just a cell.

As far as I know Kinoptik only made their wide angle Tegea lenses (5.7mm, 9.8mm) in Arri mount. Their 35mm format cinema lenses, which were around f/2 from memory, I've only ever seen in Cameflex mount, which would need considerable re-machining to convert to Arri Standard.

If you want working, useable lenses for an Arri 16S, just look for some Cooke Kinetals or Schneider Cine-Xenons, sets started around 9 or 10mm for a wide angle and went up to 50mm for the long end. There is an 8mm Zeiss in Arri S mount as well that's good. You could conceivably get a whole set of Schneiders for the cost of that ornamental Kinoptik.
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#6 Robert Hart

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 01:12 PM

The mount on that lens seems to be an ARRI standard mount. The lens type is scarce. I had not heard of it. As Dom Jaeger suggests above, the example illustrated appears to be incomplete, either a lens block with missing focus and iris control or has been modified. In original or mint condition it may appear different, possibly styled like Cook Speed Panchros.

I expect that it might have once had focus numbers on what is now stained bare metal near the front of your example lens and in front of that and reaching down inside the lens barrel with a sort of a cone extension, another ring on the front to control the aperture like an old Cooke or Schneider.

The example lens would not be practically usable on the ARRI camera as you would have no predictable control over it.

The 35mm T1.2 Optika Elite I have was a cheap price off eBay a few years back. Allan Gordon has one listed on inventory but it is a fairly gold-plated price about six times what I paid for mine.

https://www.alangord...mm-optika-elite

As Dom Jaeger advises above, a 35mm focal length is a telephoto lens on a 16mm/Super16mm film camera. Of more utility might be a lens in the 16mm focal length or 12mm focal length.

What mount does your ARRI S camera have on it? Has it been converted to PL-Mount or is it ARRI B or ARRI standard. I regret I am not familiar with the ARRI 16mm cameras.

There are on eBay and other sources, Super16mm capable lenses of T1.3 or near-to. 

Some such are Cinema Products CP Ultra T* which were made by Kowa. Most are in CP-Mount but some are also found in ARRI mount. Ken Hale at Whitehouse Audiovisual was doing stainless steel PL-Mounts for them. The 12mm and 25mm were sharper wider-open before they flared than the Optars and preferred by a cammoe I worked with for a job he did. The 16mm on a digital cinema camera seemed to generate a central internal reflection in the centre quarter of the image area. On a film camera, I expect that would not happen.

There is a partial CP Ultra T* set from a vendor in Hong Kong, missing the 9mm wide-angle. The CP Ultra T* 9mm was a tricky lens to focus in that it had a strange focus arrangement which feels like a combination of helicoid and cam/slot actuation, is very sharp but hard to achieve repeatable focus moves with. It also corner-vignettes a Super16mm image. It was designed for standard 16mm. It can be modified by Ken Hale at Whitehouse A/V or Visual Products foir Super16mm. It is a fairly simple fix but wide-open, the focus goes soft in the edges and corners of a Super16mm image.

http://www.ebay.com/...dEAAOSwiDFYND3S

The Zeiss Distagon 12mm, 16mm, and 25mm T1.3 examples on Allan Gordon are priced higher.

The eBay asking price on a similar lens seems similar.

http://www.ebay.com/...sMAAOSwTuJYod8Y

There are the Optar Illuminas which can be found can also be found in PL-Mount and ARRI-B mount. The ARRI B-Mount specimens may pre-date the lenses imported to the US by Lumatech and their mechanical build quality may be inferior to the Lumatech imports.

The least costly specimen is a 16mm at this eBay address. It is in PL-Mount.

http://www.ebay.com/...0gAAOSw~CFY5Jzk

Please take more notice of the advice from other commentors rather than from me.


Edited by Robert Hart, 16 May 2017 - 01:19 PM.

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