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F23 is now cheap.


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#1 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 06:41 AM

On ebay for just under $3000 US.

 

Of course, it's also enormous, weighs a ton, and draws 50W of power while producing 1080p60 pictures at best.

 

Compatible with 2/3" lenses, though. Canon's HD-EC zooms regularly go cheap on eBay.

 

P


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#2 Macks Fiiod

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 08:30 AM

How does the picture compare with f900? Those are currently even cheaper with portable form factor.


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#3 Mark Kenfield

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 08:34 AM

They're really not that heavy paired with a lightweight external recorder like the Odyssey 7Q, it's lighter than an Alexa and uses far less battery. It makes a wonderful combo with the Zeiss Digiprimes (which can also be had super cheap now).

 

You'd have to really want to use B4 lenses to pick it over the F35 though (which isn't quite that cheap yet, but is still incredibly affordable at the moment).


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#4 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 10:43 AM

How does the picture compare with f900? Those are currently even cheaper with portable form factor.

 

 

It's a much better recording, you can record true 1920 x 1080 10-bit 4:4:4 in HDCAM-SR with less compression and in Sony Log.

 

With the Sony F900, you're limited to 1440 x 1080 8-bit 3:1:1 in HDCAM with more compression and no log gamma.

 

"Speed Racer" (2008) was shot on the F23, some bits of "Avatar" too, and "Public Enemies" (2009).

 

You've still got the "look" though of 2/3" 3-CCD imagery though, that extra depth of field.


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#5 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 11:49 AM

To be fair, you wouldn't record either an F23 or F900 to their original decks - you'd record them to some sort of flash recorder. No purpose in getting locked into an expensive tape workflow you don't need. Reportedly you can even even do the speed ramping, you just end up teasing out a load of duplicate frames in post (which is easy unless you happened to want to do a multi-hour timelapse, at which point you face storage problems.)

 

There's a Canon HJ21x7.5B KLL-SC lens, from their HD-EC "electronic cinematography" range, on eBay for under $2000 at the moment which would complement an F23 nicely. They go cheap because they were essentially built for the very brief era of high end 2/3" cinematography on things like Viper, F23 and F900. They don't have the zoom grip or extender of a more conventional B4 lens, but they do open up to a T2.1, which would facilitate some control over depth of field.

 

As an aside, you can load what Sony calls hypergamma curves into an F900, which provide some - many, frankly - of the advantages of log recording.


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#6 Macks Fiiod

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 02:39 PM

Yeah I was about to say, when using an HD-SDI converter I'm pretty sure it was 10-bit 4:2:2 that the f900 would output. However the 4:4:4 you mentioned would still put it at an advantage. Also I believe it (f23) has the HD-SDI built into the body? Could someone confirm or deny that?


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#7 Michael Rodin

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:10 PM

F23 does have a wider and more accurate color response compared to F900. It's on par with today's best cameras in that sense. Highlights are smoother with the same number Hypergammas (which aren't actually the same as they're still adjusted fo different cameras' latitude).

Canon HD-EC zooms don't do this camera justice. It deserves Fuji E Series or Zeiss Digi ;)


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#8 Michael Rodin

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:13 PM

Two HDSDIs are on the so called Interface box. It came from factory with every camera but rentals could be selling used cameras without them. They aren't regular BNC though, they're 2-pin Lemo - at least on early cameras.


Edited by Michael Rodin, 21 June 2017 - 04:13 PM.

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#9 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 07:18 PM

The hypergamma,s have a smoother roll off than the Rec709 with a knee ..(compression kicks in earlier) but they dont behave the same as Slog in the high lights, which has no roll off or shoulder at all.. above mid grey you have the same amount of data per stop.. (Slog3).. and pretty much the same slog2.. so its often "better" to raise noise floor or at least pretty safe to over expose .. where as the hyper gamma,s are better to be a little under exposed .. to save highlights as if the other standard gamma,s..  AFAIK


Edited by Robin R Probyn, 21 June 2017 - 07:18 PM.

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#10 Michael Rodin

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 02:33 AM

Hypergammas on F23 produce smoother highlights compared to F900, I meant. On this camera they're adjusted to hold detail at 3 stop over "100% video white" exposure (Sony calls it 800% dynamic range). On F900, Hypergammas keep highlights that are 2 1/3 stops over.

F900 can also be made to shoot S-log, but it's a bit too noisy for that.


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#11 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 02:52 AM

Yes sorry.. I wasn't directing my post to you directly sir.. I think there was some mention of log on a previous post..  just rambling on really.. 


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#12 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 03:22 AM

I always quite liked hypergamma. Worked better for my "video" brain than ask this log stuff. These days I keep shooting log with a 709 curve in the monitor, their the same curve on it in resolve, and go...


... Yup that'll do...
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#13 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 03:59 AM

Totally agree.. hyper gamma,s are great.. we even have 7 and 8 in the F5/55.. you do still have to be in "protect the high lights" mode though..  and same here with Slog3.. throw in the in built REC709 LUT and shoot.. I usually just eye ball exposure.. 90% of the time.. knowing I have a ton of high light data for post..  pan, tilt and invoice !


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#14 David Hessel

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 10:31 AM

Two HDSDIs are on the so called Interface box. It came from factory with every camera but rentals could be selling used cameras without them. They aren't regular BNC though, they're 2-pin Lemo - at least on early cameras.

 

I don't think this is quite right. WIth the F35 (which is basically the same from my understanding) the interface box has two SDI's, not lemos, that can be used to record 4:4:4 from the camera.

 

With out this interface box it is limited to 4:2:2 via the monitor port which is a single sdi. Options for recording this dual link from the SDI are fairly limted, either using a 7Q directly or by adding a multiplexer and your chose of SDI recorders. The camera outputs dual link PsF which is not supported by any of the modern SDI recorders besides the 7Q AFAIK. 

 

If you get a F23 make sure it comes with the interface box. It is also needed to power the camera if you want to use a 4 pin xlr, with out it a 8 pin lemo is required. They are extremely hard to find on their own and a generally expensive if you do. 


Edited by David Hessel, 22 June 2017 - 10:33 AM.

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