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Advice on next steps as a DP


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#1 toby lockerbie

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:43 AM

Hi all, I'm a DP and filmmaker based in London, I've been a long time lurker (!) on the lighting forum in particular and greatly appreciate the time and effort people put in to the forums. This is my first proper post so any thoughts and advice on my quandry would be much appreciated!
 
Probably best to start with my 2017 DP/filmmaking showreel: 
 
 
I've been shooting professionally on my own equipment for about 5 years (I'm 36), starting with music videos but also more recently corporate, commercial and travel shooting too with clients finding me directly. When I first started my music videos I was being represented as a director, but I learned relatively quickly that my heart was less in directing and all in the cinematography so I've been focused on that since. I do still enjoy doing 'everything' on small web projects, working as a small, independent filmmaker but really I'd like to work more consistently as a DP in the future.
 
My circuitous route to becoming a filmmaker and DP means I've got a relatively diverse body of work but I haven't done much narrative DP work or have much 'real' set experience and I recognise that I've got lots more learning to do. I'm not one of those 'DPs' that owns a Red but doesn't know what a C-stand is but equally I didn't start as a clapper loader and work my way up.
 
So I'm looking for advice for next steps for someone who hasn't DP'd much narrative work but wants to. Should I go back to basics and find work as a camera asssistant to get more set experience? Or should I have faith that my current work is strong enough to warrant selling myself as a DP on a low budget short and look for that? Should I look for a diary service/representation? Should I try and make my own short film? Should I pester other DPs for advice and ask to shadow them?
 
I'm just not sure what the smart move is next, any help appreciated!

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#2 AJ Young

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:27 AM

Great work on the reel! If I may, cut together a shorter reel. Most producers/directors will only give the first seven seconds before they've made up their mind. Compounding on top of that, if they see a reel longer than 1.5 minutes, they'll be less likely to even watch it.

 

Getting more narrative work is the desire of many, but there's no easy answer. It's largely a subjective career that relies heavily on "right place, right time" and meeting the right people.

 

Your best bet to get long term narrative work is to network. Building relationships with directors, producers, and production companies will get you narrative work. Sadly, that takes time. Most of the aforementioned usually have their go-to DP's at the current moment in time, but maintaining a good network relationship with them can often lead to a good referral. Crewing on narrative shorts/features/episodic is an excellent way to network.

 

Your lack of on-set narrative experience won't be too much of a concern; you'll pick it up in a week on a feature. Inevitably, you'll pick it up when you shoot more and more shorts.

 

Shooting your own short can help, but it's a investment if you want a quality piece for your portfolio.

 

Getting representation (or an agent) won't help. David Mullen gave a great explanation: http://www.cinematog...=73450&p=470324

 

I wouldn't pester other DP's, but definitely meet narrative DP's and get their advice. ALL DP's love talking about their work. Building that network of DP's usually leads to narrative work in the long run as well. For example, "Hey Toby! I'm booked up on a feature right now, but I've got a producer friend who needs a DP for a short next month." Guess what happens after you shoot that short for that producer? They'll tell their friends that you were great/terrible.

 

A tip on networking: don't ask for a job or talk only about the industry. It's like dating; going straight to sex won't work; you've gotta get to know the person and put the time in.


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#3 toby lockerbie

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 04:57 AM

Thanks AJ! Really appreciate the time put into that reply, lots of great information there.

 

Will definitely take it on board and cut a shorter DP only showreel and start actively building up better DP contacts here in the UK in a not too pestering way!

 

I'll think a little more about doing a short of my own, might not be the best use of my energies if I can get DP work on other shorts or even just crew on other narrative work.

 

Cheers for the link to David Mullen's advice on representation too, I don't think I'm there yet to approach an agent but will look into representation a bit more for the future.

 

Thanks again!


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#4 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 01:45 PM

I shall copypasta some unfortunate-but-true things I've posted before.

 

The UK has practically no film industry.

 

That which does exist is basically a service industry making American films. Even if you do manage to get involved in that stuff, you are never likely to become a cinematographer on them, ever, unless you have a route to a US work permit.

 

The number of jobs available in camera departments of the type you're probably thinking of is well under ten a year, nationwide. Since the country is enmeshed in a severe financial depression, that is likely to contract even further. Unless you have some sort of connection through friends or family, forget about it.

 

Trainee positions, internships, and other low-end employment are frequently used as ways to employ people on unlivably low wages. You will need to be in London, and you will need to survive on at best seventy or so days' employment a year, at camera trainee rates which are currently about £100/day.

 

If you can survive on £7000/year in London, great, because you must then have very rich parents who can buy you a £500,000 flat there.

 

And that would be based on your becoming a very successful, in-demand camera trainee. Because there are almost no jobs available, the likelihood of your advancing from that point is effectively zero. When you get bored, run out of money, or start looking for advancement, they'll stop using you, and get someone else.

 

Most of the advice you will get in this thread will be from the American point of view, where things are very, very different. In the UK, you may as well ask to become an astronaut.

 

P


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#5 toby lockerbie

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 05:40 PM

Thanks for the post Phil, though I thought I was a pessimist! :)

 

I do of course appreciate your point of view and I've read many of your posts before so always appreciate the time and effort people put into replies, though I do worry a little that as it's a copy and paste by your own admission, it's not as entirely relevant to my situation as I'd hoped. But beggars can't be choosers!

 

I have been working as a DP and filmmaker for the last five years in sunny London and I also manage to pay my mortgage so I can probably afford to do some low paid work for some helpful experience but I don't think there's any reason for me to solely work as a camera assistant 'full time' for instance and give up on all other work I do.

 

I was just hoping for some tips on getting some more narrative experience but perhaps I should have clarified further, I'm not saying I only want to shoot features, it's just that in general, cinematography is at it's purest in narrative and if I want to be the best DP I can be I should at least be trying to do some of my work here. So any guidance on my specific situation would be great. Obviously my aim is to DP on some shorts, documentaries, TV and features, but that doesn't mean I don't also want to shoot more commercials or music videos or even live TV, episodic youtube series, social media campaigns, travel films etc. I'm just hoping for a few tips and some possible guidance on how to get a little more set experience in that narrative world. While the state of the features film world in the UK is a little more dire than I expected if I'm to believe the above, I have no doubt that there is still work in the UK in those other types of filming and I wouldn't limit myself to UK only productions.

 

I'm here looking for advice for my first post so can't complain that I got some but based on my own experience and others I know of, the opportunities for being a DP in the UK aren't quite as astronomically/astronautically impossible if features aren't your only goal. If you've got any more advice about the UK DP industry outside of just the big feature world I'd love to hear it Phil.


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#6 Phil Connolly

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 04:41 AM

Hi Toby 

 

Your reel looks good but light on Drama work. If you make a conscious effort to build up the narrative work - I'm sure you can address that. Either by talking to the directors your already working with, perhaps they cross over into drama from time to time. Or look for short film opportunities - your reel is strong enough to be considered. There are plenty of shorts being made in the UK. The trick will be to avoid the bad ones (the vast majority) 

 

I wouldn't bother  with the camera assistant route - but just get stuck in with making films. First time I encountered a C-stand was on a shoot I was DOPing, I just hired them and experimented. Thats normally how I learnt. I would use each short film as an opportunity to try something out or experiment with a different bit of kit.

 

On thing i did do is volunteer at the NFTS this was lucky that they didn't have enough cinematography students to shoot a bunch of projects for one of the diploma courses. So I got to shoot about 4 shorts in a 3 week period and raid their massive kit store and experiment. They even paid me in the end. Although it was a bit ironic in the year the NFTS rejected me as a cinematography student, I had DOP credits on several student shorts. 

 

Really its about making relationships with the right director. The ones that are going to move up and take you with them. The trick is of course picking those directors that will move up.

 

Its also difficult to get paid for things like shorts in UK, its nearly always micro budget and you often just have to battle to get a couple of C-stands and lights that aren't Red Heads. In my own situation I couldn't make it pay consistently enough - drama projects were mostly unpaid and the competition to get even those was fierce and not owning any kit didn't help.

 

So now I don't rely on production for the bulk of my income and if I make things its either music videos or personal projects to stay creative. 


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#7 toby lockerbie

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 05:05 AM

Hi Phil (C!), 

 

Thanks for the reply, super helpful and good to hear you're in the UK. Yes it's really drama I'd like more experience of, it does sound like shorts (and finding a good one!) should be the next step to focus on. I've generally assumed that route wouldn't be much of a commercial decision and more of an educational one so pretty set on it not paying much, I wouldn't be able to afford doing that alone.

 

Really interesting on your NFTS experience, sorry to hear they didn't accept you (I've heard they're massively oversubscribed) but managing to shoot some shorts with them, raid kit and even get paid sounds like you got the best possible outcome! I've looked at the course too but not sure if I could do full time for two years and with the added expense and that's assuming I even got accepted. Definitely interested in the volunteering idea.

 

Regarding the bulk of your income now, is that in film education? I see you're a course leader for a Film BA at Brighton University.


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#8 Freya Black

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 07:53 AM

I hate to tell you this Toby but everything being written here is really good advice.

Yes it's possible to make a living as a DP on non narrative work in the UK I know plenty of people who do this

and manage to make it work somehow. This isn't what Phil is talking about though but relating things to your exact situation and interest in narrative stuff.

 

Narrative work is much more difficult because generally the work is unpaid or poorly paid in the UK

I do think the tip about the NTFS is a good one. I have had some good experiences with this kind of things myself,

I'm always a bit bewildered how stuff like this happens but I used to help out on a lot of student shoots doing sound because nobody wanted to do sound at the time. Later one of the students decided to do sound so I was mostly dropped because I wasn't even a student although I still got picked up to do work from time to time even after that as people knew I was nice and did a good job. One short I worked on even won an award from Kodak apparently!

 

In a similar fashion, I once played Gamelan at the Birmingham Conservatoire, (high end music school) despite being thrown out of GSCE music when I was little. It was a shock for me as they are such incredible instruments and if you were a student then that was probably your one chance to play on instruments like that but it doesn't use standard western musical notation and the students decided they would mostly rather be in a brass band instead.

I think they felt that the Brass Band would be closer to more conventional music and help them more in their careers or something. Not sure what to make of it. You could probably joing the salvation army and be in a brass band.

 

So I had some positive educatonal experiences that I didn't pay for. ;)

 

The NTFS is the premier film school in the UK and they actually have budgets of some kind for their shorts and stuff and you can probably make contact with the kind of people who might have a chance of being in the club for the little bit of UK film funding that goes around.

 

Having said all that the situation with movies in the UK is especially bleak. It is generally funded by government institutions who have certain tastes and may attach certain conditions. It's also all about being in with the right people.

 

There are the american films being shot here but it would be easier to get on as crew on those than cinematographer because these are generally shot by the most famous cinematographers in the world.

 

Television is more of a possibility as the UK does still have a bit of a TV industry in spite of things.

However I know someone who I personally feel is one of the best DP's in the UK and whose work I really admire and in spite of the fact his talent should be plain to see, he has struggled to get work in the TV industry until recently while much less able people have worked on all kind of leading TV productions. It is sad to see this kind of thing so obviously happening but it does and it's because in the UK it's is much more about who you are friends with than your ability. For this reason your relationships with other people are really important.

 

His story has a happy ending as he is finally getting some work in that sector but be prepared that it might take years and years.

 

I get the impression that it is also really quite hard even in LA to get top positions as a cinematographer but there is a lot of smaller work that can be done out there so people can get by shooting narrative stuff rather than having to rely on industrials and event shooting etc. This means it's a lot easier to get directly relevant experience there.

 

I don't think it's pessimism, whether you want to approach the situation with a positive outlook or a more negative outlook is up to you but it's also worth being aware of the situation as it might help you to not get beaten down by it and also to give you a better idea of how to approach things if you are really determined to give it a go! :)

 

Freya


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#9 toby lockerbie

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 08:42 AM

Hi Freya,

 

Much appreciated, all constructive advice is certainly taken on board. We've actually spoken before, you interviewed me a few years ago for Red Shark News about a film I made using a camera Sony lent me, small world!  As mentioned I'm not just looking to be a feature DP and didn't actually mention features in my question. Rather I'm looking for some tips to get some narrative work and set experience, AJ and Phil's advice pointing me towards shorts seems like the right move to me and it's good to hear more from you about the NFTS and possible opportunities there (though I won't count my chickens!). I'm not going to stop what I'm currently doing but getting some set experience, meeting and working under other DPs, talking to the NFTS to see if I can offer some help will all I think help me on my way to being better at my job.

 

It does sound like feature work in the UK is a very hard nut to crack and TV not much better so I do greatly appreciate that realism and information. I don't think it will frighten me off aiming for a feature or episodic TV at some point, especially if I can manage other work at the same time, but I can't say I wasn't warned! :)

 

I think I'm realistic enough to understand I'm not going to be Deakins in 5 years, I'm just looking to be a better cinematographer and this seems the best forum for that for some tips. Hopefully all of us who consider ourselves cinematographers want to do some narrative work and perhaps some only want to do narrative work, I just want to keep being busy, keep getting better and hopefully keep enjoying the journey!

 

 

 

.


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#10 Phil Connolly

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 08:56 AM

Yes - I'm working film education which works out well, I discovered that I really enjoy teaching and I can still work on side projects. 

 

Yeah the Cinematography course at the NFTS is very difficult to get onto. I believe they have applications in the 100's for 6 -8 places. I failed to get on the course twice and third time lucky got onto the  TV directing MA. I'd had so much fun working the previous year with the department I thought I'd give it a go and it was an amazing two years. It is more risky now as their fee's are higher. When I went fees were £5k per year and I got a 50% scholarship and maintenance bursary and I still struggled. 

 

It did seem to work out well for the DOP's of my graduating year (2009) most of them are doing big budget drama and proper features.  So it can open doors.  

 

I think in your case you already have a strong reel and it wouldn't take much to get a bit more narrative work in there. I would also try to see lots of short films, go to film festivals and meet filmmakers that way. Creative England sometimes do networking events, I've found them useful to find collaborators. 


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#11 Freya Black

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:25 AM

Hi Freya,

 

Much appreciated, all constructive advice is certainly taken on board. We've actually spoken before, you interviewed me a few years ago for Red Shark News about a film I made using a camera Sony lent me, small world!  

 

 

Oh god! I recognised the name and couldn't work out from where. I think we were both at the BSC show once and I saw your name tag but couldn't work out where I recognised it from!

 

Well if you managed to get Sony to lend you a camera then that is a great start. You could use that kind of ability to help you with equipping for narrative work too! ;)

 

I'm also right here if you need publicity for a project and have a tech angle! :)

 

Freya


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#12 Freya Black

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:39 AM

 

It does sound like feature work in the UK is a very hard nut to crack and TV not much better so I do greatly appreciate that realism and information. I don't think it will frighten me off aiming for a feature or episodic TV at some point, especially if I can manage other work at the same time, but I can't say I wasn't warned! :)

 

I think I'm realistic enough to understand I'm not going to be Deakins in 5 years, I'm just looking to be a better cinematographer and this seems the best forum for that for some tips. Hopefully all of us who consider ourselves cinematographers want to do some narrative work and perhaps some only want to do narrative work, I just want to keep being busy, keep getting better and hopefully keep enjoying the journey!

 

 

 

I get the impression that TV work as DP is Waaaaay easier to get than regular DP work on features in the UK.

It's just really, really difficult in itself. It's a much easier target for the most part though.

 

In my own life right now I'm mostly trying really hard not to worry about the way things are and hoping I'm going to get lucky somehow. It's nearly August and I'm still here. If you have a way of earning a living and you can do some narrative stuff too on the side then that seems a great way forward and then you can just hope you get lucky somewhere!

 


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#13 toby lockerbie

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:45 AM

Yes - I'm working film education which works out well, I discovered that I really enjoy teaching and I can still work on side projects. 

 

Yeah the Cinematography course at the NFTS is very difficult to get onto. I believe they have applications in the 100's for 6 -8 places. I failed to get on the course twice and third time lucky got onto the  TV directing MA. I'd had so much fun working the previous year with the department I thought I'd give it a go and it was an amazing two years. It is more risky now as their fee's are higher. When I went fees were £5k per year and I got a 50% scholarship and maintenance bursary and I still struggled. 

 

It did seem to work out well for the DOP's of my graduating year (2009) most of them are doing big budget drama and proper features.  So it can open doors.  

 

I think in your case you already have a strong reel and it wouldn't take much to get a bit more narrative work in there. I would also try to see lots of short films, go to film festivals and meet filmmakers that way. Creative England sometimes do networking events, I've found them useful to find collaborators. 

 

Glad to hear you're managing education and working at the same time, sounds tricky but rewarding. Good to hear you did get to NFTS, though yes the fees are up a bit now unfortunately, did you manage to find time while on the course to escape some days to do paid work or was it too 'full time' for that? Thanks for the advice on Creative England, will take a look at that and dates for film festivals too.


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#14 toby lockerbie

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:52 AM

 

 

Oh god! I recognised the name and couldn't work out from where. I think we were both at the BSC show once and I saw your name tag but couldn't work out where I recognised it from!

 

Well if you managed to get Sony to lend you a camera then that is a great start. You could use that kind of ability to help you with equipping for narrative work too! ;)

 

I'm also right here if you need publicity for a project and have a tech angle! :)

 

Freya

 

Ha ha! Though I haven't been to the BSC show so you were fine there, hopefully there isn't another DP out there with my name doing awesome work!

 

I stupidly hadn't thought about working with Sony for a short film kit wise, another thing to add to the list, lots of helpful tips here thank you all! 


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#15 Phil Connolly

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 10:32 AM

The course is very full time 9 till 6. 4 to 5 days a week. 

 

I had to work throughout the course to cover my rent.  I was able get edit assistant work and QC work at a soho post house and it was flexible enough to work round my course. I was lucky to be staffed edit assisting the final QC and deliverables on Top Gear - so could work on very long Saturday night shift prior to TX. But i was one of the rare exceptions in that the work I did could be evenings and weekends and I was enough in demand to request flexibility on the hours. Most other students didn't get much part time work in - its very full on.

 

I think the most tired I got was floor running on a series of night shoots for game show in the British Museum and going straight to class after - catching 40 mins sleep on the train to Beaconsfield. (fun times)  

 

I felt I was missing out by doing 15-20 hours paid work a week since I couldn't do all the extra curricular side projects or go to all the evening screenings.  

 

Its the same on the cinematography course - you have a lot of long shoot days and if you ended up shooting a stop motion animation they can be huge time commitments as well.


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#16 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 10:41 AM

A friend of mine is currently doing a VFX course at NFTS and she's working 25 hours a day. It's murder.

 

Ambitions to do non-feature dramatic work are fine, but be aware that there is absolutely no money of any kind whatsoever in it. Even features, if you can get them, are paid at poverty levels until you hit the big time, at which point you go from very poor to very rich very quickly - or at least in theory you would, I've never met anyone who's done it.

 

Music videos, short films, indie features - all great fun. But either literally or effectively unpaid and you will be required to bring expensive equipment. You'll struggle to even get them unless you have the latest equipment.

 

P


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#17 Freya Black

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 10:55 AM

Ambitions to do non-feature dramatic work are fine, but be aware that there is absolutely no money of any kind whatsoever in it. Even features, if you can get them, are paid at poverty levels until you hit the big time, at which point you go from very poor to very rich very quickly - or at least in theory you would, I've never met anyone who's done it.

 

Music videos, short films, indie features - all great fun. But either literally or effectively unpaid and you will be required to bring expensive equipment. You'll struggle to even get them unless you have the latest equipment.

 

P

 

 

TV is the way to go but it's all about being friends with the right people there.

It is kinda possible though and the cinema world is going more TV all the time. 

There are even giant TV's being made for cinemas now:

 

https://www.redshark...d-cinema-screen

 

With things like Netflix dominating so much, it's easy to think that the future of narrative filmmaking might be TV in some form. It also seems like even if it isn't, that it might be the best way for someone in the UK to even have a hope of working on larger movies.

 

Freya


Edited by Freya Black, 20 July 2017 - 10:57 AM.

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#18 Elizabeth Hylton

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 02:12 PM

Side note: love the reel. Though it is a little long. 


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#19 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 02:53 PM

I should probably have mentioned TV too, but all I can say is that it has exactly the same issues as features. Incredibly rarefied and with essentially no way in unless you're part of someone's inner circle.


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#20 Michael LaVoie

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 02:58 PM

If you do decide to self produce your own shorts to get more narrative experience, just be sure to attach a qualified 1st A.D., upm or coordinator so your experience is the same as it would be if you were hired on a regular production.  If that is, you're looking to get "experience" that will help you feel more confident on legit sets.  Surround yourself with qualified professionals and that will help ease you into the whole thing while taking the pressure off because you're the boss at the end of the day.  It can also get you in front of people who may in turn be able to hire you on their shows.


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