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Shooting with kino flos vs. diffused fresnel lamps


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#1 mmonte000

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 08:39 PM

I will be shooting in a supermarket soon and am a little afraid to use Kino flo's seeing that i've never used them before. Is there really a quality difference between shooting with Kino Flos's and just using diffused fresnel lamps? Also, how do I know what types of Kino Flo's to get. Are there Kino Flos that are Tungsten and daylight balanced, or are there different types with different temperature ranges? Also, should I have the Kino Flo's/lamps up high to show that the light is coming from above, or should I just fill the whole scene with light so you can't tell where the light is coming from?

Thanks for your answers...

Chris Reilly
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#2 Lars.Erik

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 01:47 AM

Kino's come in tubes with 3200K and 5600K. You just use the ones you want.

One thing to remember about kinos vs. tungsten fixtures, is that kino's will fall off faster than tungsten fresnels. If it's a big supermarket you'd have to go for the bigger kino's, like a kino blanket and 4" 4bk and those sizes. And you'll need quite a few of them if you want the light to be even.

If there's big windows there you could use HMI through the windows. etc. You can use mirrors to bounce the light around etc. Talk to the people you'll be renting the lights from. I often do, if they are pro's they'll be able to give you good advice. Take pictures of the location.

The quality differnce between Kino and tungsten fresnel is that as I said, Kino will fall off faster and will spread the light a lot more. The rays of light will also be softer.

Tungsten fresnel are lights with lenses that break up the beams so that the light becomes a lot more controllable than say Kino and open faces. These lamps are used for concentrating beams into certain areas.

The place to put the lamps is a purely esthetic decision. If you want it to look natural your best choice might be putting the lamps from above.

If you're shooting people in the market, you might want to relight close ups so that the faces don't become to dark. But again, this is a purely estethic choice.

Hope this helps. Good luck.
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#3 Bob Hayes

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 06:00 AM

It's not really important what light you use, HMI, Kino, Tungsten. What is important is that you match the color of your lights to the super markets and ambient daylight coming in. Most fluorescents require full green correction on all lights. Cool whites require daylight lighting sources.
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#4 timHealy

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 10:46 AM

Kino's come in tubes with 3200K and 5600K. You just use the ones you want.


Don't forget about K2900's They are more like 3200 degrees then the 3200's. The 3200's are a little cooler running more like 34-3500 degrees.

Tim
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#5 mmonte000

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 02:50 PM

It's not really important what light you use, HMI, Kino, Tungsten.  What is important is that you match the color of your lights to the super markets and ambient daylight coming in.  Most fluorescents require full green correction on all lights.  Cool whites require daylight lighting sources.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Luckly we will be shooting at night. I do want some moonlight possibly shooting through the windows. Is there any sited with lighting setups for supermarkets?
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#6 Ken Zukin

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 03:11 PM

Make friends with the maintence guy from the Supermarket. Tell him you need some of the same fluor. bulbs they use in their store. Then just re-lamp your Kino's with the store's lamps.
That eliminates the guesswork of what color temp. you're dealing with.
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#7 mmonte000

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 03:17 PM

Ya, but what if the lights don't fit. Also, are there any movies or sites I can look at that had this similar setup?

Make friends with the maintence guy from the Supermarket.  Tell him you need some of the same fluor. bulbs they use in their store.  Then just re-lamp your Kino's with the store's lamps.
That eliminates the guesswork of what color temp. you're dealing with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Edited by mmonte000, 29 June 2005 - 03:20 PM.

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#8 Tomas Koolhaas

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 03:24 PM

Hello,
Please do not fill the whole scene up with light so you can't tell were it's coming from!!!!
Your image will be terribly flat and boring! I can see you are worried about this situation but do not ruin your chances of having a nice looking scene by playing it safe.
What format are you shooting on? if it is digital and you will have a well calibrated monitor on set you can match the color of your own production lights to those already in place at the supermarket by eye, on the monitor. If you are shooting film you will have to check the bulbs and see what type they are (there are now many different color temp flourescent lights available form hardware stores including daylight) then correct your lights, or the existing ones (if you can reach them) accordingly.

As has already been stated Kino's are no different to any other type of light in terms of practical usage, in fact they are easier to use in many situations because of their compact nature and the fact that you can mount them on a simple clamp like a cardilini with a gobo head and clamp them almost anywhere. They do have less throw than beamed lights so don't expect to mount them far from your subject and get a good exposure.
good luck! and don't ever play things safe, you can only learn by taking chances.
Cheers.
Tomas
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#9 Delorme Jean-Marie

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 05:07 PM

one thing important with fluos is IRC
profesional fluo either 3200 or 5600 are superior to 99 it meens the spectrum of color is complet.
in the ceiling of a supermarket, you will have plenty of different IRC(bleue, red, green, yellow...pink) so first chek if their is a majority and then set the corection you need.
it can be really tuff to motivate a supermarket fluo light buy a fresnel, it seem more natural to motivate it with a fluorescent light but anyone is free to light his way...
have fun
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#10 Robert Morein

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Posted 01 July 2005 - 08:14 PM

I will be shooting in a supermarket soon and am a little afraid to use Kino flo's seeing that i've never used them before. Is there really a quality difference between shooting with Kino Flos's and just using diffused fresnel lamps? Also, how do I know what types of Kino Flo's to get. Are there Kino Flos that are Tungsten and daylight balanced, or are there different types with different temperature ranges? Also, should I have the Kino Flo's/lamps up high to show that the light is coming from above, or should I just fill the whole scene with light so you can't tell where the light is coming from?

Thanks for your answers...

Chris Reilly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A Kinoflow provide approximatey 5X the total light output of an ungelled Fresnel. If you gel a lamp full blue, you lose an additional 70%, for a total differential of 15X per watt, in favor of the Kino. A diffusion gel results in similar loss in the high intensity spot zone.
Of all the incandescent lights, the Fresnel is the least efficient; most of the lamp light never exits the housing. This is because Fresnels were designed to throw an intense, focused spot.

Fresnels, along with their more efficient and modern cousins, the Dedos, are the most flexible kind of light. But as the above shows, this comes at severe cost. If the intent is to provide accent on a scene that is already fairly well lit, they may be useable. But putting diffusion on a Fresnel actually defeats the purpose of the light. Open faced lights with diffusion have a 2.5X advantage in illumination per watt versus a Fresnel.

As the other posters point out, Kinos are somewhat hard to control. But the first priority is to get enough light to expose the film. Unless you have high amperage available at the set, Kinos are the most practical choice. If the Kino light is too undefined, you can use undiffused Fresnels to bring up the contrast ratio.
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#11 Robert Morein

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Posted 01 July 2005 - 08:25 PM

I will be shooting in a supermarket soon and am a little afraid to use Kino flo's seeing that i've never used them before. Is there really a quality difference between shooting with Kino Flos's and just using diffused fresnel lamps? Also, how do I know what types of Kino Flo's to get. Are there Kino Flos that are Tungsten and daylight balanced, or are there different types with different temperature ranges? Also, should I have the Kino Flo's/lamps up high to show that the light is coming from above, or should I just fill the whole scene with light so you can't tell where the light is coming from?

Thanks for your answers...

Chris Reilly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


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#12 Tony Brown

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 08:21 AM

Hello,
Please do not fill the whole scene up with light so you can't tell were it's coming from!!!!
Your image will be terribly flat and boring!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Just like a real supermarkety then....perfect.

Take a look at One Hour Photo.... boring.....perfect.
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#13 Tomas Koolhaas

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 03:07 PM

Hello,
Hi Tony of course you are right, sometimes flat "boring" lighting is neccesary and very fitting, however I think there's a difference between intentionaly lighting something flat for that specific feel and doing it because a scene seems difficult to light and you don't want to make any mistakes, also I think there's a difference between real flat ugly supermarket lighting and lighting that looks good but still reads to the audience as flourescent supermarket lighting, this can sometimes even be achieved by just turning off certain tubes of the existing lighting to create more contrast.
Cheers.
Tomas.
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#14 Markus Rave

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 04:42 AM

Dear Chris,

I shot tons of supermarket footage for a big company. I used whatever was available, i.e. Flos or HMI. Mostly you will find cool white sources in a supermarket which will emit different shades of green due to their age. I found the basic color temperature around 4000° Kelvin which means you have to use daylight fixtures adding half CTO. Since you are shooting in some tight places Flos are the fixtures to opt for. They come in various sizes and I used a couple of fourbanks to fill spaces and some smaller fixtures for close ups and dark shelves. Some small units hide very well in the shelves. You might want some 575 or even 1200 HMIs for bouncing longer distances. Supermarket shot are boring. I never found a workaround since either you light the whole thing or go with the given lighting design. Make sure to have ND in various sizes to dim down hotspots made to attract the customer. Of course there is plenty of beauty to get out of your talents in tight shots.
You adjust your color correction to the existing fixtures and add your fill later. Be careful not to raise the overall level of your scene too much since the rest of what you see will get too dark and attract attention. You will need some small tungsten fresnels to add kickers and highlights, I always take a couple of 300 and 650 W sources and of course tons of grip :)

Good shooting to you

Markus
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#15 Tony Brown

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 04:50 PM

Thomas - Completely agree its the instinctive wayto go. Use blacks to intoduce a degree of contrast into such situations by all means, but ( though I hate it ) it has to look real. Flat and toppy (in a supermarket) is real, what Ridley would do in such a situation I cannot second guess, though personally I'd go completely the other way, even flatter, try to make it as much like a heavenly white limbo as possible.
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#16 oscar jimenez

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 07:27 PM

I dont understand why "reality" has to be portrayed such that way. CAn one make something quite simple and plain as a supermarket, look magical, but without going to extremes ? When I was an AC one DP that I worked with, did a lot of supermarket stuff for a major local chain, and he did some beautiful stuff, with contrast, some backlights and some hot spots here and there, we'd only carry one 1.2, 2-575, one 5k and some small fresnels (2k, 300/650w ), more than enough for shooting inside and keep it simple. AS for wide shots, some kino 10 and a 2.5k par become handy. But everyone has a different book, a matter of personal taste. And if you dont have a thermo to check on temp, a wihte sheet of bond paper works very good. before you start lightning. These kind of places always have a base Stop to start working from since they are very much lit.
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#17 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 07:43 PM

Well, how often does a story require that a supermarket look "magical" as opposed to ordinary? Your stylistic choices should be based on the needs of the story. Often it just has to look like it really does, so a DP should resist the temptation to be clever.
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#18 F Bulgarelli

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 01:10 AM

Also, you can always light it flat and increase the contrast later in post if you wish.
If you have time, shoot a test. You will be surprised as to how much flexibility there is, specially if it's something going straight to video.
Another option is to get a large, punchy source and bounce it off the ceiling.

Francisco
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#19 oscar jimenez

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 08:34 AM

You are right Mr Mullen. Depends on story. But, once again, why shuld one be so clever always or naturalistic? I.e Robert Elswitt on "I am Sam" ( I think was Ellswitt) Unless story absolutely may require that kind of mood. Maybe it is just a matter of style, Zsigmond and Almendros are naturalistic, Elswitt, Paul Cameron, Not that much. But as you state, Depends on story needs.
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#20 Tomas Koolhaas

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 04:08 PM

Hello,
I am glad you brought up Elswitt because he's a perfect example of what I meant by looking 'real' and 'naturalistic' but yet having a great beauty to his images. I have heard that he uses a lot of small units, simple lighting set-ups and available light whenever possible ( he also seems to use quite a lot of iris pulls- punch drunk love, but that's besides the point) his work on PT andersons film are some of my favourite of recent films because of their honest simplicity. It goes to prove that you dont have to either shoot flat and boring over lit images to stay real to a certain feel (eg supermarket) or go crazy with a bunch of 10k's and a condor to make something look 'pretty' with rim lights, hot edges and pools of light everywhere, there's a distinct middle ground which can be attained by utilising the existing light sources and supplimenting them a with some smaller well placed units (not just in a supermarket but anywhere) and just moulding these into something that creates the sense of mood and contrast that will best serve the story/characters and emotion of the scene.
Cheers.
Tomas.
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