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Industry input on daughters career path with a portfolio website question mixed in


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#41 Bruce Greene

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 10:22 AM

Filmmakers are like musos. WHY would you do it? The answer is a simple one.

Musos.  I learned a new word today!


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#42 Bruce Greene

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 10:25 AM

I make a living in the film industry, producer/director.

 

BOTH of my sons are BANNED from pursuing a career in film, full stop.

 

R,

Glenn has a daughter.  Different rules apply?

:rolleyes:


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#43 Richard Boddington

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 11:28 AM

Glenn has a daughter.  Different rules apply?

:rolleyes:

 

Well that's one issue no one has dared touch in this thread.  There are ZERO female DOPs posting on this website, why is that?

 

R,


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#44 Macks Fiiod

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 11:29 AM

Uh oh


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#45 AJ Young

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 11:52 AM

I'll touch on the issue of women cinematographers. I don't know why only men are posting on this specific forum, but there are working women cinematographers and other online cinematography communities with active female members.

 

A reality is that discrimination still happens in our industry, either through unconscious bias, sexism, or prejudice. I'm not an expert on the topic, nor am I the right person to be talking about it, but I know people who are:

  • The International Collective of Female Cinematographers is a great starting point for your daughter to reach out to for advice on starting her career as a cinematographer. Website
  • Cinematographers XX is another group, like ICFC, who I recommend your daughter contact and get advice. Website
  • Cybel Martin is a working union cinematographer based in NYC. She responds to twitter pretty quickly, so have your daughter contact her through there. Twitter Website
  • Julia Swain is a working non-union cinematographer based in LA. She is also working on her documentary titled Women of Light which explores the history and future of women cinematographers. She too is good at responding on twitter. Twitter Website

I'm the last person who you should seek advice on about this issue. I am aware about this topic, am trying to understand it, and actively improve trying equality in our craft. The people and organizations I've mentioned are the ones your daughter should seek advice from.


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#46 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 11:58 AM

I was asked to write an article on this subject a while ago. I had to dig quite hard to find one example, directly supported by evidence, of someone in the film industry being discriminated against on the basis of her gender. I probably has to ask twenty or twenty-five people in order to find that example. As far as I can tell there is no reason to believe there is widespread, deliberate and systematic exclusion of women from the film industry.

 

Frankly, it's easy for anyone to gripe about the way the film industry has treated them - everyone's got a story, and everyone likes to make excuses, but in the main my impression is that any gender prejudice (or frankly most kinds of prejudice) is so buried by nepotism, luck, and the massive oversubscription of jobs that it's effectively undetectable.

 

In short, it will not seem fair, but it doesn't seem fair to anyone.

 

P


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#47 Macks Fiiod

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 12:02 PM

People also sort of choose to ignore the fact that, societally, women are encouraged into certain jobs/careers. There aren't a lot of female DoPs cause there aren't a lot of women who want to be DoPs. They're out there but people should start looking into the statistics for people who want the jobs in addition to the people who have the jobs.


Edited by Macks Fiiod, 31 August 2017 - 12:03 PM.

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#48 Richard Boddington

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 12:42 PM

I think the ASC is about 95% male.  Lucky for them women haven't turned their guns on them the way they have the job of director.  Mainly because no one really knows what a DOP is or does, and he's not high profile or "celebrated" like the director is.  Not a single woman has won an Oscar for best cinematography.  The director category is doing slightly better, one women has won an Oscar for best director.

 

Frankly, I don't think many women are interested in being a DOP.  These days being a DOP involves being on the road potentially weeks on end.  Nothing will be shooting in your area that you can go to on a 9-5 basis.  Look at David Mullen, every time he works he gets on a plane, what does that tell you?  I also think very few high school girls consider working behind the camera in any capacity in film, and these are future generations that feed the industry.

 

My current project involves using two of Toronto's biggest post houses, so far one woman has worked on the film....one.  This out of a small army of people between the two facilities.  Again, I think if you toured 30 high school girls through these post houses they'd have zero interest in working there full time one day.  Now there are people who will say, well Richard that's because they don't see any women doing these jobs in first place.  That might be true, I dunno?

 

Women have moved in large numbers into other areas of the film industry though, many distributors have majority women departments including being led by a female VP.  Casting directors in LA are certainly well over the 50% mark.  One of the big banks in Canada has a film lending division that is all women staffed, not a single man working there, that kind of surprised me.  I mean not even one man?

 

So women have made great strides in some areas of the industry, in other areas, mainly production...not so much.  Why? is a question that will be debated for a very long time.

 

I will add, before any freaking out begins, that all the women I have had on set over the course of five feature films were all excellent, and I mean excellent.  A lady production designer saved my ass on two movies, big time, and she knows it!  Also had women in the camera dept as ACs and they were all terrific.

 

This is also the year that Hollywood's highest grossing movie was directed by a woman.  So clearly, it's not all bad news out there.

 

R,

 

Now we need, Freya, the lone woman who posts on this forum to comment. :)


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#49 Glenn Batson

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 01:00 PM

Women in DP

My daughter is fully aware of that fact and being a young woman in this day and age, that is motivation for her along with she loves the work.  I guess for "me" after looking at the Camera department I see it a lot like why are there not many women carpenters/builders.  Just not a job a woman normally went into.  As for discrimination based on sex it is going to happen everywhere.  For me personally I see it as a generational thing and changing over time.  One thing is my daughter is not the lightweight type.  About 5'10, played a lot of basketball as a youngster and lifted weights in high school.  So I would like to think she can hang with the physical work.  Slippery slope this topic.

 

Sony

I think someone mentioned about Sony and reliability.  My son did the Appalachian Trail Thru Hike last summer. If you don't know what that is it is approx 2000 mile journey from Georgia to Maine from Mar to Sep through the Appalachian Mountains.  Something like elevation change would be like hiking Everest 16 times.  He is (actually both of us) are amateur photographs.  We bought him a Sony A7 for the journey.  We were worried about it making the trip but it did.  Now maybe he just took good care of it.  Normally had it strapped in a chest pack or in his hand.  Took a lot photos.

 

Musos

Count me also googling that word.

 

This Thread

Everyone here I can't state enough how I appreciate the input.  AJ that was a great last post.

 

Well back to work.


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#50 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 01:04 PM

Women are well represented in some departments, namely Hair/Makeup, Wardrobe, Art Department and Production, and not so well in others, like Camera and G&E. That said, I know plenty of female ACs, and it's only a matter of time before they step up into Operator roles, and onwards to DP.

 

I'd agree with Phil, and say that I've never heard of women being actively discriminated against in this industry. I have heard stories of (and experienced) men being discriminated against on the basis of gender.


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#51 Jon O'Brien

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 04:11 PM

Yes, allow me to define my use of the word. Picture, if you will, Professor Frederick Treves in his lecture theatre (just for dramatic effect). And in glorious 35mm black and white. He turns to his lecture theatre full of earnest professional colleagues, be-whiskered (many of them) and wearing fine woollen suits).

 

"Gentlemen, the word "Muso" is an Australian English term, and quite simply means "A musician, chiefly of the professional class".


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#52 David Mawson

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 07:57 AM

 

Sony

I think someone mentioned about Sony and reliability.  My son did the Appalachian Trail Thru Hike last summer. If you don't know what that is it is approx 2000 mile journey from Georgia to Maine from Mar to Sep through the Appalachian Mountains.  Something like elevation change would be like hiking Everest 16 times.  He is (actually both of us) are amateur photographs.  We bought him a Sony A7 for the journey.  We were worried about it making the trip but it did.  Now maybe he just took good care of it.  Normally had it strapped in a chest pack or in his hand.  Took a lot photos.

 

That was me. And for professional use you can't afford to judge reliability that way unless an asset is one you can afford to replace if a fault develops. For vital assets you really need something like this

 

http://cpn.canon-eur...ent/services.do

Welcome to Canon Professional Services (CPS). The European CPS programme is a completely free service that offers Canon professional photo and video users exclusive access to a range of benefits. These include access to CPS support at major events; a priority repair service; and local CPS support in selected European countries. Free back-up equipment loans during repair periods are also available, depending on the level of your CPS membership

 

Although your son's camera did fine, Sony are known for horror stories like Phil Peterson's here -

 

https://www.amazon.c...al&pageNumber=1

 

..That isn't saying that you shouldn't buy Sony (I'm waiting to see what the next A7 series is like myself) just that when you buy a business critical asset for any business, you have to make reliability and service a much bigger part of the picture than for a consumer purchase - paying 10 or 20% more for robustness, fast repairs and loaners can make excellent sense.  Alternatively, keep an emergency fund that lets you replace a piece of equipment while it is being repair, either by buying or renting.

 

...And it seems that Sony are at least offering paid-for pro support now -

 

https://alphauniverse.com/prosupport/

 

...Although you need to have bought quite a lot of hardware to qualify - and then they might still turn you down.


Edited by David Mawson, 01 September 2017 - 08:02 AM.

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#53 Glenn Batson

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 05:04 PM

Interesting update on women in film. Anna got her first dose of it at school. She searched out organizations for film stuff. School does. It have film program. Well she ended up in a meeting with 14 boys and she the only female. Head organizer was impressed with her editing knowledge. She was not to keen on what they wanted to focus on because they look to just be doing small what's going on at campus clips. She was hoping for more creative approaches to their shooting. Group was called creative collective. Shooting is shooting experience though. . Mom was not to keen about her and a bunch of senior guys since she is freshman. We just read so much on campus rape. Kids and your worries for their protection.
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#54 Michael LaVoie

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 08:16 AM

 

Well that's one issue no one has dared touch in this thread.  There are ZERO female DOPs posting on this website, why is that?

 

R,

Laura Beth Love was around this forum for a while.  http://www.cinematog...?showuser=62362   She's definitely busy.   I wish she'd post more.  Would love to hear what the Sharknado 4 set was like.


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#55 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 08:39 AM

Didn't Jen White post here at least a couple of times? And Erynn Patrick has just signed up.

I had, other than me, an all-female camera department on a short a while ago (Anna Carrington, Sophie Piedallu and Tzu Chi Chung) and it didn't strike me as particularly unusual. I suppose objectively it is unusual, but frankly you're too busy to care.


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#56 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 10:54 AM

My camera crews have been almost 50% female for a while, it's hardly unusual anymore.  And on my last series, a third of the electric department was female including the "best boy" -- and on the series before that, the best boy Grip was female.


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#57 Glenn Batson

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 10:55 AM

Two funny updates from my daughter. We picked her up last night due to holiday weekend.

First story is she has to take this social class for freshman. Required money maker. There are like 50 kids. They made teams of four for the year. She said they grouped them on the answers about what they wanted to do in life. Of course Anna said cinematography. She got lumped in with trophy wife, traveller and I don't what I want to do girls. This was the woman who told them her real work is biology. And it is not one of those fluffy sciences you know. I told Anna she thinks cinematogphers are fluffy careers.

Second story Phil and Macks will like. So told you there was long story about her national film completion and that they got 20th. We'll talk is going around confirmed by the head guy that there was a mistake in the scoring. Her partner thought maybe it had to do with their film because their viewer count went up unexpectedly went up. I couldn't break it to my daughter that the view count is likely from my actions on this forum.

Finally the creative collective head guy wants to do buzzfeed vids. That is why she was not that interested.

Off to mow the yard. Hurricane Harvey made my grass grow tall.
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#58 Macks Fiiod

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 10:59 AM

Yeah I never tell people I'm a "filmmaker" when they ask my living. When you're under 30 people assume you're a loser going nowhere.


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#59 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 08:49 AM

I was involved as an instructor in a summer high-school filmmaking camp that just wrapped a couple weeks ago. Of the 29 students who took part in the camp, 16 were girls – so more than half. At the end of the class, we took a poll on what each kid wanted to ‘do’ in the industry when they grew up, this is the results:

 

Director: 14, 7 of which were girls.

Cinematographer/DP: 6, 5 of which were girls.

Producer: 3, 2 girls.

Writer: 2, 1 girl.

Editor: 3, 1 girl.

Production Management: 1, 0 girl.

Below-The-Line Production Personnel (catch all for ops, ac, gaffer, etc): 0

Post-Production (including VFX): 0

 

Surprisingly, the most startling statistic was that 5 of the 6 who wanted to be a cinematographer where girls, the highest among any category next to Producer, where 2 of the 3 were girls.

 

Take these numbers as what you will, and I don’t want to say they are any kind of scientific numbers – but I think it does prove that we shouldn’t write-off girls not wanting to get into the industry at all. I think we should be more concerned with the fact that no one wants to actually do any of the grunt work and/or work in post-production. Not that I’m really shocked, since everyone wants to ‘big’ jobs.

 

Bottom line, I think the real reason there are not a lot of working female cinematographers is not because they are discriminated against, it’s just that there aren’t many who actually enter the field in the first place. When 95% of the workforce is male, is it really shocking to see 95% of working cinematographers be male? Any other statistic and I’d have to assume discrimination on the part of the men.

 

BTW) As part of the class, I took them to my studio office downtown and let them play around in the post-suite a little. Imagine my surprise when this one girl, who was either 14 or 15, sat down, opened up Fusion Studio and began to construct a sequence of nodes on a clip she pulled from her phone. I believe she was one who wanted to be a producer, but that chick had some talent with VFX. After a few minutes, she had fusion particles shooting out of her friends hand, deflecting off the ground… And we all know (or might), that Fusion is not the easiest of VFX software to learn.

 

Come to find out, her dad bought her a Blackmagic Pocket Camera for her 13th birthday, and she had been playing around with resolve and fusion for a few years. I was impressed. I certainly hope she stays with the film industry, since I seen some major talent in her. 


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#60 Macks Fiiod

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 11:01 AM

Tons of kids know VFX software nowadays though, all the youtube tutorials and people like Freddie Wong made it a normalized hobby thing. Now when she pulls out a script that makes you cry from an epic tragedy, then you know you got something.


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