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Sony Venice full frame cinema camera.


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#1 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 04:39 AM

Sony have unveiled their new flagship camera.

 

https://www.provideo...-cinema-camera/

 

https://pro.sony.com...nd-Venice.shtml

 

http://www.xdcam-use...-cinema-camera/

 

 


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#2 aapo lettinen

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:29 AM

I am a bit worried about the framerates the camera offers. nowadays it should be able to reach at least 60fps in 5k or 6k and well over 100fps in 4k to be competitive, preferably at least 120 or 180 or 200+ fps in 4k.

those framerates in the specs are, for example, not enough for (animal) nature footage, and barely enough for commercials if slow motion is not needed... that limits its market quite a bit. way better than the Varicam35 concept but it should just have much higher framerates I think


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#3 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:58 AM

I know what you mean.. but I really don't see this as natural history dp, s camera.. for that they already use the F55.. 180 fps or 240 with the RAW recorder..   all the main controls are on the dumb side.. its definitely marketed for that type of production..   they have a crazy amount of cameras out there now.. fs5,fs7,fs7MII,f5,f55,f65 and this one !!.. but f65 they will stop making soon for sure.. dont why they say they wont TBH.. who is ever going to buy it new now.. you would have to be certifiable .. 


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#4 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 09:34 AM

Full frame? Didn't really read much about the camera, but doesn't that mean that a lot of cinema-style lenses are basically moot on this camera? 

 

Edit: Never mind, I see the sensor scales...

 

Camera seems kinda 'eh' to me. Sony has really fallen by the wayside in professional film production. I imagine this camera will be very expensive (didn't see any pricing details), and will probably be on par or exceed the cost of an Epic Dragon or an Alexa, without offering really much new other than a full-frame option, which appears to cost more money. It certainly isn't winning any frame-rate awards.


Edited by Landon D. Parks, 07 September 2017 - 09:38 AM.

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#5 Mark Kenfield

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 09:35 AM

It'll be interesting to see if it can record 1-48fps when the full 6k sensor is downsampled to 4k for recording. That would certainly help a bit.

1-48fps covers 99% of everything I shoot, so I'm really not fussed about it topping out at 60fps. But not being able to do a basic 2x slow motion with the full sensor would be frustrating.

That said, stepping down to S35mm for those occasional slow-mo shots, isn't really the end of the world.

Topping out at 10-bit 4:2:2 for internal recording is my other major gripe. But I love the 8 step/8 stop internal NDs and the 5 second boot up time. The weight, size, ergonomics and UI also seem terrific.
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#6 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:01 AM

I read a price $45K body only .. thats not bad really.. ENG cameras were more only a few years ago.. it will down sample to 4K.. also a good thing.. seems the idea was aspect ratio agnostic.. and there are quite a few FF cine lenses out there now.. but the low frame rates is odd.. maybe you can get higher rates with the R7 Raw recorder ,like the f5/55..  ? 

 

I wonder why they didnt use the fantastic variable ND thing they have in the Fs7.. I thought it would have that for sure..  anyway I just want the new EVF.. and its probably all I can afford on that camera too !


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#7 aapo lettinen

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:03 AM

I would really like to see something like a updated F55 concept with easily changeable mount adapters, relatively lightweight and "small", high framerates over 200fps in full resolution, high quality raw, high iso... kind of a multi purpose camera like the F5 is, not a "we want to make a VaricamLT style camera with similar stupid flaws and just name it differently" type of concept. thank goodness it at least HAS raw options and not just some 422 nonsense when wanting higher framerates than 30  :blink:


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#8 aapo lettinen

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:10 AM

also too expensive. should be less than 30k with the raw recorder and viewfinder I think  :lol:


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#9 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 01:59 PM

Did you guys watch the entire video from the European preview? Stock the camera in Europe won't allow the use of the full imager. You have to pay for full frame and anamorphic use. Not a problem for ENG, but the camera only has ONE XLR input, so there goes even running 2 mic's into it. XAVC codec only, 10 bit pro res via license... really? No 12 bit 444 Pro Res XQ, only 10 bit HQ... givce me a break.

I did the math, when you take into account the body, viewfinder, software licenses for all the formats, Pro Res license and RAW recorder, your up to around $55k euros. You can own a pretty decent Alexa Mini for that much and TWO 6k Red packages that record an actual usable RAW codec.

Ohh and did anyone else notice it's a 24v system? GAH! What are they thinking!?!!?
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#10 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 02:25 PM

Did you guys watch the entire video from the European preview? Stock the camera in Europe won't allow the use of the full imager. You have to pay for full frame and anamorphic use. Not a problem for ENG, but the camera only has ONE XLR input, so there goes even running 2 mic's into it. XAVC codec only, 10 bit pro res via license... really? No 12 bit 444 Pro Res XQ, only 10 bit HQ... givce me a break.

I did the math, when you take into account the body, viewfinder, software licenses for all the formats, Pro Res license and RAW recorder, your up to around $55k euros. You can own a pretty decent Alexa Mini for that much and TWO 6k Red packages that record an actual usable RAW codec.

Ohh and did anyone else notice it's a 24v system? GAH! What are they thinking!?!!?

It's clearly not a camera that is aimed at the ENG market. This is Sony's new top of the line camera, so I'm sure they're aiming it at high end productions that will use the RAW recorder and only need XAVC for proxies. There may well be other codecs rolled out over time.

 

The Alexa mini is not a 6k camera. Nor even 4k.

 

It's a dual voltage system, not just 24v


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#11 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 03:32 PM

The lack of frame rates is the only problem I see with it.
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#12 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 09:21 PM

Yes I guess they want to push their X-OCN ST / X-OCN LT.. with very good reason I think.. 16 bit RAW with pretty much the same bit rate as Pro Res ..   that cant be bad..

 

Looks a great camera .. except for the lack of HFR..  can understand difficulties for FF.. but good if they could put in a crop mode HFR..   so at least 100fps in s35 4K.. and then more in 2K crop maybe .. in a firmware up date..

 

Not aimed at the  doc or corp camera market thats for sure.. 


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#13 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 09:53 PM

The Alexa mini is not a 6k camera. Nor even 4k.


Neither is this camera outside of anamorphic full frame. Last time I checked, we don't shoot square very much.

Venice resolution is 4096x2160 with the standard license and 1.76:1 aspect ratio. So I don't see it being anything special.
 

It's a dual voltage system, not just 24v


Huh, says right on Sony's website, it's a 24v system.
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#14 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:23 PM

Not sure what you are talking about -- it records 6048 pixels across in Full Frame mode, and that's not anamorphic.


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#15 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:24 PM

re power.. The camera can run off either 12V or 24V and it has an internal 24V inverter so that when using a 12V power source such as a V-Mount battery you still get 24V out of the industry standard 24V lemo connectors.

 

re HFR.. seems the answer is you can change the whole sensor block in the field .. 4 screws all modular .. so there would be a HFR sensor in the future .. or a BW one .. and what ever else they come up with..although I still think a crop mode, higher frame rate function would be a good thing.. 

 

They do at last really seem to have gone out and talked to alot of DP,s.. well feature film people anyway.. and taken alot on board.. Im sure its a great camera.. it almost couldn't not be these days..  paid attention to the picture rather than the pixel war game.. simple menus  .. Tyler dont be down on the camera.. give it a try.. apart from the lack of HFR.. if the picture is good.. its at least as good if not better than any Arri on offer.. and alot smaller and less weight ..and a very good price.. $42,000 I just read RRP.. body only.. Ive paid alot more than that  .. on three occasions for ENG camera,s.. not so long ago.. !!!


Edited by Robin R Probyn, 07 September 2017 - 10:33 PM.

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#16 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:57 PM

Neither is this camera outside of anamorphic full frame. Last time I checked, we don't shoot square very much.

Venice resolution is 4096x2160 with the standard license and 1.76:1 aspect ratio. So I don't see it being anything special.
 

Huh, says right on Sony's website, it's a 24v system.

You compared this camera with all the licenses, which makes it 6k, to an Alexa Mini package which is 3.4k at best. Please try to be consistent in what you allege.

 

It says on Sony's website that it can operate off either 12 or 24 volts.


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#17 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 01:46 AM

Further article in FD::

 

http://www.fdtimes.c...06/sony-venice/


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#18 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 03:18 AM

Not sure what you are talking about -- it records 6048 pixels across in Full Frame mode, and that's not anamorphic.


Sorry, the "imager" is a 6k imager, but there is very little access to the full imager.

According to the Sony documentation, the camera will only record 4k internally. So even if you had the license key for the full frame 6k imager, you would not be able to record with it internally, only on the external AXS-R7 X-OCN recorder which is another $7,000 USD.

Then, you've gotta pay for a license to allow the full frame imager to function, which is $6,0000 for the FF and if you want anamorphic support, another $4,000, according to the video I watched.

So far there isn't much info on exact pricing outside of the videos, but the guys were wrong about the whole 24v thing, so maybe they're wrong about the licensing prices as well. I've just studied the tech sheets to avoid further confusion.
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#19 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 03:35 AM

I understand that Sony are going for a modular design with this camera. So, it may be the case that Sony are going for a film camera style pricing arrangement, where the camera body and mags and other parts are separate items and you buy those items that you need. There's a hint in another article that you should be able to buy the camera for less than the RRP.

 

Here's a piece on X-OCN http://www.fdtimes.c...tive-recording/


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#20 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 04:08 AM

Also interesting is the idea of changing the sensor... 4 screws in the field  (said the actress to the Bishop) .. no clean room needed.. that really is like changing film stocks.. that could be a whole new bag of tricks..  they are coping Arri with the licensing I guess.. but you can have permanent or even just per day apparently .. I don think they should have waited till the FF was up and running before release though.. thought they would have learned from the F55 debacle on release.. 


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