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Eclair NPR loading: the 12 image loop

16mm camera loading eclair npr loop film

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#1 bradley hayman

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 09:38 AM

I'm ready to do some tests with my Eclair NPR camera and I have some questions after practicing loading the magazines...

 

Obviously I'm missing something simple and I've spent some time searching yet haven't found the answers so please forgive the basic questions:

 

1) Can someone explain the importance of the "loop"?  It's very specific about 12 images with 6 on each side.  I don't think the manual I  have explains why this is important and what will happen if the frame count of the loop is incorrect or if it's out of alignment.  Will it effect the image?  Will there be flickering?

 

2) Assuming the loop is important, why is it necessary to then press the film into the magazine? (thus reducing the loop, I count 8 frames after my loop is pressed in).  The videos I've seen go to some length to detail exactly how the loop is formed... only to quickly say "and then when you're done you press it in and load it onto the camera..."

 

 

Again please forgive my ignorance and thanks for your patience

 

-B

 

 


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#2 aapo lettinen

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 10:28 AM

Incorrect loop causes more noise, possible scratching and even jamming in film camera. I have not used the npr but i assume it is pretty similar to aaton ceras in "incorrect loop tolerance" and it is always best to use the recommended setting. Does the 2finger aaton loop adjust also work with the npr, would be useful because the loop needs to be set in changing bag
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#3 bradley hayman

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 10:37 AM

Thanks so much aapo, your reply is very helpful. That info is basic but an important fundamental aspect of the camera.

Yes they do recommend the 2 finger measurement, but also seem very insistent about an exact count of 12 frames in the loop.

Im confused. I thought the only part of loading done in total darkness is the feed side. Is that incorrect? Otherwise its load the feed in darkness, close lid, flip, thread take up side, measure loop and thread into core ... all done in the dark.
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#4 Samuel Berger

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 12:18 PM

Bradley, congratulations on choosing the best 16mm camera that has ever existed.

 

It's only the feed side that needs to be done in a changing bag. I take it you've seen this:

 

 

There are at least two different versions of the manual online, plus the section of the Professional Cameraman's book which deals with this right here:

 

https://books.google...air npr&f=false

 

Eclair 16 Manual http://online.sfsu.e...t/NPRmanual.pdf

 

Other version: http://www.visualpro...clairManual.pdf

 

Site with some info and downloads: https://eclaircamera.../npr-eclair-16/


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#5 Samuel Berger

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 12:05 PM

Another tutorial on loading.

 


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#6 bradley hayman

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 01:21 PM

Hi Samuel,

 

Thanks for all that info!  I've been watching those tutorials and they are definitely helpful to watch as I learn how to load.  I'd be in trouble without them.  The manual I have (the visual products one) is very detailed but it's hard to imagine it just from text.  Watching the vids and lots of practicing with my vinegar-y dummy load is getting me more comfortable for sure.  

 

Would you say that the loop help keeps a certain amount of tension that is necessary to keep the film registered correctly?  Does it help the flow of the film as you're shooting?  I've noticed sometimes when I load and run the film, there are small noises coming from inside the magazine.  I assume its something I"ve done incorrectly since the sounds seem to disappear once I take the film out and start over.

 

I feel like I'm so close to shooting my 1st reel of 16mm and I'm so excited but I really want to minimize the mistakes I'll make as I learn. Once it's loaded, this reel will basically be some test shots of new lenses and maybe some B roll footage.  I've recently had this camera serviced and converted (ultra 16) and it really is so quiet when it runs.  I've tested the decibels with an app on my iPhone and I think at about 8 feet away the microphone doesn't even pick up the sound of the camera running.  I assume you have some 16mm footage shot with the NPR and I'd like to see it!

 

Thanks again for your help!

B


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#7 Samuel Berger

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 01:50 PM

Well the loop makes it possible for the film to not get ripped apart if there's too much tension. It gives room for the occasional stalling of the feed roll.

 

I'm not sure what the small noises you are hearing are. When you had it converted did you get your mags serviced as well?

 

I'm actually working on some camera tests myself. I had my kit away from me for ten years and was completely disconnected from the hobby. So I don't have anything recent to show, and the old stuff makes me cringe. ;-)


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#8 Carl Nenzen Loven

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 03:32 PM

Bradley, congratulations on choosing the best 16mm camera that has ever existed.

Jean-Pierre Beauviala would probably think different :)

Also, for shoulder I have only tried the NPR for fun. But the ACL fits a lot better ;)

C


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#9 Samuel Berger

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 03:33 PM

Jean-Pierre Beauviala would probably think different :)

Also, for shoulder I have only tried the NPR for fun. But the ACL fits a lot better ;)

C

 

You don't have the optional Victor Duncan grip. ;-) That's an equaliser if I've ever seen one.


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#10 bradley hayman

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 06:39 AM

Well the loop makes it possible for the film to not get ripped apart if there's too much tension. It gives room for the occasional stalling of the feed roll.
 
I'm not sure what the small noises you are hearing are. When you had it converted did you get your mags serviced as well?
 
I'm actually working on some camera tests myself. I had my kit away from me for ten years and was completely disconnected from the hobby. So I don't have anything recent to show, and the old stuff makes me cringe. ;-)


Thanks again for your help and input.

I did have this mag serviced (not exactly sure what that entailed) and after some practice I think I narrowed down the sources of the various sounds I heard once the camera was running.

Mostly due to my own inexperience and incompetence the core on the take up side wasnt secured completely so that led to one noise.

Another was the metal of the daylight spool grinding against the inside of the magazine (which seems to be missing a part) and making a slight ringing sound.

Another VERY loud sound was when the loop somehow gets lost. Never imagined it could be so loud but instantly disappeared once I removed the mag and recounted and redivided the loop.

Finally finished my test roll which took some effort as I was trying test the abilities of about 7 lenses. Fun but challenging to do it in public. This camera turns a lot of heads as soon as I get it out of the car! Some are astonished and some appear terrified lol

Hope your tests went well and Id be curious to know what they were
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#11 Mark Dunn

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 07:23 AM


 

Would you say that the loop help keeps a certain amount of tension that is necessary to keep the film registered correctly?  Does it help the flow of the film as you're shooting? 

The loop isolates the intermittent movement at the gate (where the film must momentarily come to a halt) from the continuous movement of the film at the supply and take-up reels.

Compare this with a high-speed camera where the film moves continuously and the image is "wiped" onto the film through a rotating prism to compensate for its movement through the gate. Above about 400fps (less for 35mm) there simply isn't time for the film to stop.


Edited by Mark Dunn, 08 November 2017 - 07:24 AM.

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#12 bradley hayman

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 10:20 AM

The loop isolates the intermittent movement at the gate (where the film must momentarily come to a halt) from the continuous movement of the film at the supply and take-up reels.
Compare this with a high-speed camera where the film moves continuously and the image is "wiped" onto the film through a rotating prism to compensate for its movement through the gate. Above about 400fps (less for 35mm) there simply isn't time for the film to stop.


Aha! I think Im starting to get it now, thanks. That makes sense that there needs to be some kind of buffer or slack between the two different motions (intermittent vs continual).

Edited by bradley hayman, 08 November 2017 - 10:22 AM.

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