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Any experience with Chinese Fresnels?


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#21 aapo lettinen

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 03:55 PM

redheads are very good as working lights though, I have one of the Chinese ones as a backup which is most of the time used as a work light and is not actually lighting anything within the frame :)

(you can use market work lights for that as well if attaching barndoors and spigot for a stand. technically that would not differ much from a redhead except being a little heavier and having rectangular housing  :P )


Edited by aapo lettinen, 31 October 2017 - 03:56 PM.

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#22 Samuel Berger

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 04:10 PM

Hi aapo,

 

I have no idea about a Canon 50D, what I meant was Kodak Vision3 50D 16mm stock. I need the finest grain possible in Ultra 16mm interiors because they will be spliced with exteriors shot on 2-Perf Techniscope in 250D.

 

Our drama has some comical moments, so I'd like to light with character. Storywise, the script could easily have been written by Francis Veber. But I watch a lot of 70s and 80s French comedies and dramas similar to what we are making and a lot of them are very flatly lit. "Pile ou Face (1980)" is one of my favourite ones yet it's very flat in lighting. I think that dramas adapted from stage plays sometimes end up being lit like stage plays. Maybe the idea in that short period was that showy cinematography steals away from performances.

 

Thank you very much for the equipment suggestions. I will look it over with care.


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#23 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 04:20 PM

....800Redheads... they are not good for much else than bouncing or filling up diffusion frames. ....

 

So quite useful then...?... :)


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#24 aapo lettinen

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 05:02 PM

Hi aapo,

 

I have no idea about a Canon 50D, what I meant was Kodak Vision3 50D 16mm stock. I need the finest grain possible in Ultra 16mm interiors because they will be spliced with exteriors shot on 2-Perf Techniscope in 250D.

 

then I would go mostly with rental lights instead. you could use the daylight leds though. but I would add some higher power HMI pars or max's (at least couple of 1.2k or 1.8k) and if you have lots of power available then you could supplement with some gelled 5k or 2k and 1k tungsten fresnels if you can get a good rental deal for them. 

It is just, a 50D film with CTB gelled tungsten lighting =not effective at all, you will lose half of the light output even if gelling to around 4500K for "warm daylight" look. the vnsp 1k's would probably do something useful if the ctb does not melt on them but I would really try to use mostly natural daylight reflected around and add some punch with cool led and hmi units. 

 

Of course if you have a very cold indoor location with no heating then the tungsten units may be a good idea, you can use them for heating up the space and will also get a noticeable amount of light as a side effect  :lol:


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#25 Samuel Berger

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 05:05 PM

Just so you know, I live in the Seattle area so "rentals" don't really exist for anything other than basic video production.


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#26 aapo lettinen

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 05:07 PM

So quite useful then...?... :)

not compared to Fresnels no :) but they are lightweight so can be rigged to some weird places and may have quite ok light quality if diffused


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#27 Samuel Berger

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 05:13 PM


It is just, a 50D film with CTB gelled tungsten lighting =not effective at all, you will lose half of the light output even if gelling to around 4500K for "warm daylight" look. the vnsp 1k's would probably do something useful if the ctb does not melt on them but I would really try to use mostly natural daylight reflected around and add some punch with cool led and hmi units.

 

Doesn't look like they used a lot of lights on this.

 

 

Click that "V" button.


Edited by Samuel Berger, 31 October 2017 - 05:14 PM.

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#28 aapo lettinen

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 05:19 PM

Just so you know, I live in the Seattle area so "rentals" don't really exist for anything other than basic video production.

if using the 250D stock on ultra16 but overexposing quite much to tighten the grain it would be easier to light, even if getting to around 125ISO or so would be much easier... are you shooting mainly day or night interiors+exteriors? 

 

If you really need to use tungsten lights as you main units you could try gelling with 1/2 ctb only and go with that warmer look, possibly gelling the windows with a quarter cto or so? depending on the look you are after of course.

 

I would use lots of mirrors and reflectors to direct natural light, especially if you are for a flatter look, and then use something at least 2k tungsten gelled and diffused to fix the rest. If there is only video production stuff available, you could use Blondes? 

they may have some 2k fresnels as well... at least some studio versions which are pretty basic stuff, even some theaters may have them. 

5K's would be nice but would be more difficult to find and you may have problems arranging the needed power even for the bunch of 2k's. 

If you have possibility to get even a single hmi unit it would be much easier for you to light, even a single 1.2k would make your life much easier :)


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#29 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 05:26 PM

....800Redheads... they are not good for much else than bouncing or filling up diffusion frames. 

 

 

I think Roger Deakins still likes them,  so I guess one could take a lesson from him... :)

 

If diffusing,  then a redhead is a simple cheap source.  If one had none, one might use the fresnel instead, and justify the expense by saying it is more useful.....What if the light had to be further away from the frame and so forth...


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#30 aapo lettinen

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 05:41 PM

 

Doesn't look like they used a lot of lights on this.

 

 

 

that differs quite much from the look you were describing. the kind of lighting in the video could be done with some smaller fresnels and /or larger led units easily but if you are after a lower contrast look, especially if needing a cool rather than warm look, then you would need lots more light. you would then need to gel the lights past 6000K or alternatively neutral around 5000 - 5600K+ grading later to cooler look (pulling the reds down) which loses the same amount of light than gelling to the same color on set but makes a slightly different grain texture because of the different colour layer exposure. 

 

How did you light the 2-perf scenes, could you just use the same supplier for the lights, just getting more of them this time? 

I would get lots and lots of shiny blankets, mirrors, kapa reflectors etc. reflecting media for the daylight in scenes and experiment a little on the locations for how much you can bring the exposure up with them and how much you actually need extra lighting units and how much can be done with directing natural light


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#31 Samuel Berger

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 05:53 PM

I haven't lit any scenes yet, at the moment everything is in pre-production. I went back and read what I wrote. I see I said earlier that dramas like mine tend to be lit flatly. Oops. I didn't mean I wanted mine to be flat, hehe. Sorry about that.  And the point of posting that "16mm test" video was to show that there's no need to had an exploding supernova on the set to get some glimmer of light onto 50D film. ;-) It also didn't represent  the style being sought.

 

This next image does, though.

 

If I could have one shot that looked like this, I'd consider myself happy:

 

61FOe.png


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#32 Samuel Berger

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 12:53 PM

I'm going back to the original suggestion aapo posted:

 

 

1pc 300 tungsten fresnel 

2pc 650w tungsten fresnel 

2 pcs 1000w vnsp ("firestarter") par64 can with barndoors etc. 

other par cans like source fours can be added as well if you need them.

 

(2pcs of 800w redheads OR a 2k Blonde for diffusion frames and bouncing if you can get them very cheaply or free and really need them) 

 

1pc high power daylight LED panel, SPOT ANGLE (something like 50w minimum, I would have close to 100w if possible. I would prefer daylight balanced instead of adjustable colour temp because of more output, it will be mostly needed for daylight applications anyway) 

1pc lower power LED panel in the 30-50w range if you need it, can be adjustable or daylight balanced. I would prefer spot but can be wider angle if needed 

 

Lots of frames, kapa and styrofoam reflectors, flags. 

 

A small adjustable hazer! you may think you don't need it but you can't live without it when having one :)

 

One dedolight type very narrow spot tungsten or led light may be handy at times but not absolutely needed.

 

This is all very expensive stuff unless I do go the Chinese knock-off route, at least with the fresnels.  I'm going to look into this and do a cost estimate. But it does sound like it would work...at least I hope so.

 

As for the hazer, here in America it seems to be very difficult to get, because fog machines get labeled as "hazers" very often and they're not the same. I've seen people use mineral oil and bug zappers, and that did WONDERS for their equipment...ugh.


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#33 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 02:55 PM

Inexpensive:

 

https://www.ebay.co....P8AAOSwB4BZ7fIs

 

Look around for one with lenses, but they're not very expensive to buy.

 

You can also get barn doors for them.

 

P


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#34 Samuel Berger

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 03:01 PM

Inexpensive:

 

https://www.ebay.co....P8AAOSwB4BZ7fIs

 

Look around for one with lenses, but they're not very expensive to buy.

 

You can also get barn doors for them.

 

P

 

Thanks Phil, I will look. But that one there I wouldn't get because here in America we use 110/120V and that one seems to need twice the current.

 

I'm very green when it comes to lighting, I've only ever lit interviews,haha. So don't those need a stand?


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#35 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 03:18 PM

You've got it easier - that one's here in the UK, but if you search the US eBay for "source four PAR" you'll find they're actually easier to get there.

 

Yes, they'd need a stand.

 

P


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#36 Heikki Repo

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 05:37 PM

Just so you know, I live in the Seattle area so "rentals" don't really exist for anything other than basic video production.

 

I tried to google a bit for Seattle and cine light rentals. First result was Seattle Grip and Lighting which had closed. However,  Pacific Grip and Lighting has an office in Seattle and you can order gear online: http://pacificgrip.com/

 

They seem to have exactly the stuff you need. So save your money and your space and redshirt gaffers ( https://en.wikipedia...irt_(character) ) and rent safe, modern powerful HMI lights. :)


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#37 Samuel Berger

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 05:51 PM

 

I tried to google a bit for Seattle and cine light rentals. First result was Seattle Grip and Lighting which had closed. However,  Pacific Grip and Lighting has an office in Seattle and you can order gear online: http://pacificgrip.com/

 

They seem to have exactly the stuff you need. So save your money and your space and redshirt gaffers ( https://en.wikipedia...irt_(character) ) and rent safe, modern powerful HMI lights. :)

 

Thanks Heikki,and I'm aware of what a redshirt is.

 

Your agonizer, please. ;-)

 

By the way, their rate card is expensive for the HMI stuff, but cheap for tungsten.  It might be smart to ultimately own the cheaper lights and rent the HMIs.

But they have the 5K tungsten fresnels that aapo mentioned, for 80 bucks, that's not bad. The HMI Par 1.8k that he also mentioned is listed at $175. One of the versions is "flicker free". Hm. Not sure what that's about.


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#38 Heikki Repo

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 12:46 AM

Well, you have to have means to power all of those 5K tungsten lights and that's where it might get tricky unless you have a generator truck :) For a smaller shoot that's pretty much why HMI, leds and CFL are so popular these days, those lights are much more efficient than tungsten. Bring in a 1.2K HMI and unless you are outside and the sun is shining, you can do very much with even one of those.


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#39 Heikki Repo

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 12:50 AM

The "flickerfree" means that the light shouldn't flicker even with more exotic frame rates and shutter angles. HMIs with electronic ballasts generally are flicker free where as older HMIs with magnetic ballasts might introduce flicker if you shoot with higher/lower fps or different shutter angle. This is due to how the lights work vs tungsten.


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#40 aapo lettinen

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 01:51 AM

the main issue with tungsten lights is the colour temperature, if you want a cold look with daylight film it is best to use high colour temperature to help exposing the emulsion layers for lower grain (otherwise would be no benefit of using the low sensitivity stock) and to be able to get the correct exposure for the look as well (better to boost the blue channel to the right exposure level on set rather than underexposing it and gaining it in post) , but that means you would need to gel the tungsten lights to maybe around 7000K or so and the gels then eat up so much light that you need really powerful tungstens to use the 50D film you have on a larger set (meaning that you would like to light an area wider than couple of feets/maybe 1.5 - 2 meters at a time). 

 

The HMIs have both much better efficiency (about 4x more light per watt than with tungsten lights) and they are already somewhere around 6000K native so you don't have to gel them as much. 

if doing a very unscientific "calculation" you would get maybe something like 8x - 9x more light with the HMI compared to similar wattage tungsten light if gelling the tungsten to the same high colour temp? 

So the 1.2k hmi compares to at least 10K tungsten light in your application, maybe more if you compare the reflectors and spread ("punch") as well if the tungsten is fresnel and the HMI is a new par or Max model. 

 

Your power options are probably limited so I really don't think you are really able to replace a hmi with any kind of tungsten in your application, you will just limit your set size so much that it makes shooting difficult and you have to use mostly tight shots and light a very small area at a time to be able to get the exposure you need for the very insensitive film. with 250D it would be not that much of a problem or with 200T not at all but with the 50 it certainly is. 

I personally use the 2k tungstens for cold look on limited budget only if the camera can do 1000 - 1600 ISO or more so that gelling is possible and I can still light an area wider than couple of meters at a time. otherwise it would be HMI of at least one or two 1.2K's or more, preferably 1.8K's or 2.5K's (those still can use household power here in 230V country) or with that insensitive film I would maybe use two 4K's or one 4K and one 1.8K so that could light a slightly larger area at a time and don't have to shoot wide open all the time.

 

Of course if lighting very tight shots at a time, shooting wide open and limiting the actor movement to an area not exceeding couple of feets at a time, then some smaller tungstens would do. Could be best, however, if you could use a 200T film if limited to tungsten lights so that you would not need as much gelling than with a daylight film, you will lose about two stops on the gels so you will effectively waste about 3/4 of the intensity of the light. added with the low efficiency of tungsten lights the 2K's or 5K's are very small in your application but of course you can use them (on a small area at a time) if not having any better option available ;)  


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