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Some guy sold his Ursa Mini Pro to buy an FS7


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#21 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:09 PM

You know he used to shoot his own films on a prosumer Sony .. in his older age..


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#22 Samuel Berger

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:03 PM

You know he used to shoot his own films on a prosumer Sony .. in his older age..


Yeah, folks do weird things when they get old and senile...sad.

I'd rather remember him like this:

WORK-201c.jpg

Edited by Samuel Berger, 15 November 2017 - 09:08 PM.

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#23 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 01:34 AM

I don't want to open up this whole can of worms again, Tyler, but you really don't need special LUTs. I shoot with the LC709A LUT that comes built into the camera, and have no problems whatsoever.


Do you physically edit and color? If not, how do you know what LUT's the colorist uses?
 

As far as workflow is concerned, I don't understand what is so complicated about shooting XAVC-I, transcoding to Pro-Res for editorial, then relinking to camera originals for final color and conform. It's the same workflow that people use when shooting with RED, or any other RAW.


Let's see... in XAVC iframe 4k mode, they aren't native to ANY editing program. This means, you MUST transcode to edit. This is done either behind the scenes in programs like Premiere and Final Cut X, or upon import with Avid. Again, nobody is thinking about the small crew. Nobody is thinking about the quick turn around. Everyone just "assumes" that every single thing you ever work on has a DIT, has an assitant editor, has the storage space to duplicate your media and a talented colorist to fix all the muckups. That's an unfathomable way to think these days, where every other company is striving to make cameras more "editorial" friendly.

Again, I've shot with them all... but the difference is, when I'm done shooting, I get to edit and color my work.

When I throw something shot with the Dragon or Alexa into my DaVinci, I apply the base LUT and it's always 100% perfect. Same workflow on 3 Sony shoots using SLog and Cine EL mode, doesn't work. PERIOD. Heck, I do one light prints of stuff I shoot on film all the time and guess what, they're perfect. I do one light telecine's and guess what, they're perfect. Everything is perfect, but Sony in SLog and CineEL. That's just my experience... there is clearly more to it, but it's depressing.

Sony cameras do have their quirks, and the menu system and engineering controls leave something to be desired, but that's exactly why you should shoot in CINE EI, where most of those controls are disabled.


Quirks and work-arounds... all because Sony wants you to live in their illogical japanese > english translation land. Give me a break.
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#24 Robert Hart

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 03:21 AM

I have been dragged kicking and screaming out of the SI2K camp into the BM URSA 4K ecosystem. That does not however make me an anti-Sony disciple. I still use a Sony EX1 and Z1 for events. - One has to learn to live within the means of any camera system.

A short film was shot here on the Sony FS7 system last year and they graded it up just fine. It looks sweet but best of all, it works dramatically.


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#25 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 05:45 AM

I'm not sure if this is comparing apples and oranges, the Sony FS7 is intended as a documentary camera, while the Usra Mini seems to be covering a "digital film camera" brief.

 

The Sony menus have a logic to them, but you don't want to trying to learn them at the last minute. However, once set,, you normally don't need to look at them again while filming. There are a lot of Sony cameras used on broadcast and other productions, so it's worth finding out more about them.


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#26 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 07:49 AM

Last time I had to deal with Sony Menues it was an hour and a half, if not more, in an area with no wifi or cellular access trying to get the damned thing INTO Cine.EI mode; but, as Brian mentions, after that, which was well before we actually shot anything, i never had to look at the menus again, outside of formatting a card.


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#27 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:18 AM

I always have the camera manual available as a check list for the menus, Unfortunately, the EBU (formerly BBC) settings for various cameras by Alan Roberts seem not to have been updated since 2016.


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#28 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:26 AM

Compared to Arri I would agree  the Japanese camera,s do have large and sometimes illogical setups.. as they go for the Swiss Army knife approach .. which has its good side and bad.. 

 

But really once you set up the User menu .. its very easy.. from V8 ..the f5/55 ..has a menu that comes up on the LCD exactly like the Arri ,which has pretty much all you will ever have to change.. you don't never really need to go into the menu at all now.. 

 

You have to be careful to not burn in the LUT in Cine EI..although burning in the a LUT can also be a good thing..when you want to ! nothing is really hidden .. . but yes not a camera to try to set up in a hurry.. but which is. .. things can go pear shaped for any camera in that situation ..


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#29 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:33 AM

I always have the camera manual available as a check list for the menus, Unfortunately, the EBU (formerly BBC) settings for various cameras by Alan Roberts seem not to have been updated since 2016.

sharegrid--- didn't have one.
and man; it was set up in the strangest way/painted the strangest colors i've ever seen out of the box.


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#30 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:52 AM

sharegrid--- didn't have one.
and man; it was set up in the strangest way/painted the strangest colors i've ever seen out of the box.

 

 

You probablyly know the camera by now.. but if in that situation again.. if your in Custom.. and its been set up really weirdly .. go to system menu right at the end .. and re set .. puts everything back to default.. or Cine EI mode..Slog3.cine.. all those paint /matrix menus are greyed out.. forget them.. its the easiest way to shoot.. all you have are pre set WB to change.. burn in a LUT if you want ..


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#31 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:54 AM

 

 

You probablyly know the camera by now.. but if in that situation again.. if your in Custom.. and its been set up really weirdly .. go to system menu right at the end .. and re set .. puts everything back to default.. or Cine EI mode..Slog3.cine.. all those paint /matrix menus are greyed out.. forget them.. its the easiest way to shoot.. all you have are pre set WB to change.. burn in a LUT if you want ..

After a beer or two in the hotel room; that's exactly what I did ;)


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#32 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 10:10 AM

After a beer or two in the hotel room; that's exactly what I did ;)

 

 

I don't see that in the manual .. :).. but an excellent addition .. 


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#33 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 10:23 AM

Page iiiixiiviixx:

"to properly toggle MLUT, first, place whiskey in glass and bring to lips, rotate, place down, then toggle to menu #177411/a, from there, tilt camera 90 degrees to initialize GPS system, place in well ventilated area for 25 minutes to reach non-optimal operating temperature, while consuming 1.75 stouts, reboot camera. To change to Cine EI repeat steps 7 through 115"


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#34 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 10:57 AM

Do you physically edit and color? If not, how do you know what LUT's the colorist uses?
 

 

I don't physically edit or color my work, but I see the dailies that are created with LC709A LUT, and they are exactly as I want them. Generally, when we color-time, the colorists prefer not to use LUTs, and to work from scratch. This has been my experience regardless of the camera system used. However, If we are pushed for time, I will ask them to just use the LC709A LUT in Resolve, and to do their corrections on a node below it.

 

 

 

This means, you MUST transcode to edit. This is done either behind the scenes in programs like Premiere and Final Cut X, or upon import with Avid. Again, nobody is thinking about the small crew. Nobody is thinking about the quick turn around. Everyone just "assumes" that every single thing you ever work on has a DIT, has an assitant editor, has the storage space to duplicate your media. That's an unfathomable way to think these days, where every other company is striving to make cameras more "editorial" friendly.

You have to transcode for all RAW cameras, too. A lot of editors don't want to deal with 4k material, either, so they want HD transcodes to work with. This is standard practice on any production I've worked on. 6 or 8k camera original files are hardly 'editorial friendly'.

 

 

 

a talented colorist to fix all the muckups

 

What muckups? If you are sloppy about your work, thinking you can fix it in post, then you only have yourself to blame when it comes back to bite you.

 

 

 

When I throw something shot with the Dragon or Alexa into my DaVinci, I apply the base LUT and it's always 100% perfect. Same workflow on 3 Sony shoots using SLog and Cine EL mode, doesn't work. 

I think Mark Kenfield and Adrian Sierkowski demonstrated quite clearly that when the LUT was correctly applied to your material it looked absolutely fine.

 

 

Quirks and work-arounds... all because Sony wants you to live in their illogical japanese > english translation land. Give me a break. 

All cameras have their quirks, not just Sony. Cine EI is not a work-around, it is a mode that removes all the complicated engineering menus for people who don't need or want them.


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#35 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 03:48 PM

Compared to Arri I would agree  the Japanese camera,s do have large and sometimes illogical setups.. as they go for the Swiss Army knife approach .. which has its good side and bad..


Arri, Red, Blackmagic, umm I mean those guys figured out the menu system. What I don't understand is Sony's reluctance to follow suit and continue to bury "system" and "frequency" settings deep in the menu instead of them being the first thing on the list. I also hate the use of those words, it's again a Japanese to english translation issue they've never fixed.

I think RED's menu's as of the Dragon, are probably the best. Being able to tap the display and slide things left to right in order to alter the setting and see the results as you're scrolling through, it's pretty awesome.

Again, for me it's being able to pick a very particular color balance on the fly. I'm always changing my color balance doing industrial/doc work, where you have a limited crew and you don't have the time to re-balance all the lights in the room to what the camera wants. With the Dragon, I tap the display, swing it to an area that has the look I'm going for and I'm done, no real "menu" at all.

But really once you set up the User menu .. its very easy.. from V8 ..the f5/55 ..has a menu that comes up on the LCD exactly like the Arri ,which has pretty much all you will ever have to change.. you don't never really need to go into the menu at all now..


It's true, the F5/F55 have that nice display on the side, which does work nicely. It's still a bit slower to work with then a touch screen though, mainly because when you're tired, the black and white letters are harder to descern and you aren't looking at the video output/results of changes when you do it. So when you make a change, you've gotta take your eyes away from the display, look at a monitor, go back to the display make another change and repeat the action. After an 18 hour day, you just wanna go home and when cameras are difficult to use because they throw curve balls like this, it leads to mistakes.

Again, when you have a full crew, people sitting on the sidelines and a 3 camera assistants, one of them can figure it out. When you're alone or have one person by your side, it gets annoying fast. Camera manufacturers spend so much time focused on working with a crew, they forget many people don't have that luxury.
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#36 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 06:47 PM

I've never had a problem getting a Sony camera to give me a white balance that works. One of the CTB/CTO range over the lens usually gets you there, using a piece of white paper (if not using a white balance card), assuming you don't want to set a white balance setting directly through the menu.

 

Just taking the white balance from the general scene does work on the occasions I've tested out of curiosity (but no red feature walls), although I don't do it in practice..


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#37 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 07:15 PM

I want what's in camera to require little to no correction in post. So I generally "tint" the image in camera to get a specific look I'm going for. This would be done with filtration and color/white balance. In the past I've done this with lighting mostly, but now that we have such killer digital technology that's so easy to adjust... why not do it in camera?
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#38 Mark Kenfield

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 07:47 PM

Tyler, XAVC edits natively in Premiere, FCPX and Davinci (at least). I've just finished supervising post on a feature shot in 4k XAVC, and the whole thing was edited and finished from the 4k XAVC masters.

No transcoding required whatsoever.


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#39 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 07:51 PM

Arri, Red, Blackmagic, umm I mean those guys figured out the menu system. What I don't understand is Sony's reluctance to follow suit and continue to bury "system" and "frequency" settings deep in the menu instead of them being the first thing on the list. I also hate the use of those words, it's again a Japanese to english translation issue they've never fixed.

I think RED's menu's as of the Dragon, are probably the best. Being able to tap the display and slide things left to right in order to alter the setting and see the results as you're scrolling through, it's pretty awesome.

Again, for me it's being able to pick a very particular color balance on the fly. I'm always changing my color balance doing industrial/doc work, where you have a limited crew and you don't have the time to re-balance all the lights in the room to what the camera wants. With the Dragon, I tap the display, swing it to an area that has the look I'm going for and I'm done, no real "menu" at all.


It's true, the F5/F55 have that nice display on the side, which does work nicely. It's still a bit slower to work with then a touch screen though, mainly because when you're tired, the black and white letters are harder to descern and you aren't looking at the video output/results of changes when you do it. So when you make a change, you've gotta take your eyes away from the display, look at a monitor, go back to the display make another change and repeat the action. After an 18 hour day, you just wanna go home and when cameras are difficult to use because they throw curve balls like this, it leads to mistakes.

Again, when you have a full crew, people sitting on the sidelines and a 3 camera assistants, one of them can figure it out. When you're alone or have one person by your side, it gets annoying fast. Camera manufacturers spend so much time focused on working with a crew, they forget many people don't have that luxury.

 

 

The Venice menu is a lot simpler and "logical" so maybe yes they are listening.. or having a look at Arri menus ..:)

 

I would urge you to set up the user menu.. you have literally any menu or even each sub menu item .. where you like it.. and edit it at anytime.. it takes no time to set up.. you can have system be the first thing in the whole menu if you want..but usually you are only changing that stuff at the beginning of a shoot.. the f5/55  LCD quick menu from V8.. can be shown by pressing the option button.. this is black letters /numbers against Yellow back ground.. as do the hot buttons..I found that pretty easy to read or at least no different from Arri etc.. 

 

Im often working without an assistant..  a lot of F5/55 are used on docs without big crews.. if you don't like Sony its your choice of course .. but really it seems just down to not being familiar with them.. fair enough.. I wouldn't shoot with a RED for the same reasons.. but actually the Sony's are not that difficult to operate .. I would thing a lot of Fs7,s are operated one man band even..


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#40 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 08:24 PM

I want what's in camera to require little to no correction in post. 

 

There's a variety of different ways to use the Sonys. You can take one out of the box, switch it on, and start shooting if you want. It won't necessarily look that great, but there'll be nothing technically wrong with it. If you want better results, you'll dig into the different settings, like the Hypergammas and figure out a look you like. If you're feeling brave, you can go deeper into the engineering menus, and really start to tweak the image. This is what we all used to do back in the days of DigiBeta and HDCam. The BBC actually had lists of recommended settings in all the menus, not just for Sony cameras, but for anything widely used. I still have a couple of memory sticks with my preferred settings for Sony cameras. Lastly, you can push all those image tweaks into metadata and post by shooting Cine EI. Ultimately, it's what suits you and your project best. Sony cameras do have a very complex level of control offered in the menus; it's a legacy of their broadcast roots, but no-one is making you use it.

 

If you want footage that requires little or no work in post, then use the cameras in normal mode, Rec709 with one of the Hypergammas. You'll have control over WB and everything else and you can just leave the engineering menus alone. 

 

If you want a little more flexibility in post, shoot Cine EI in SLog3 with LC709A as your LUT. It's a standard LUT across all Sony cameras, and it comes ready installed in Resolve. Yes, you'll only have three white balances, but that's still one more than you have with film...

 

These cameras are not that difficult to learn. No more than learning the tricks of a Panaflex, when you've only worked with Arri.


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