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35mm 2-perf viable altrnative to Super 16?

film camera film format. 35mm 2-perf

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#1 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 03:58 AM

Hello Group,

 

A couple of times I heard that 35mm 2-perf is an excellent alternative to Super 16mm film. 

 

Lately I discovered some sources (facebook), where older, used film cameras are being sold in near perfect condition - for very accessible prices (no glass though). No worries: I won't buy anything without making 100% sure I know what I will get. 

 

I am obviously on a budget, but doing all the math: 35mm 2-perf (even with the sides cropped to 1.85:1 or 16:9) seems to be excellent value for money since the improvement regarding grain and resolution is clearly visible and the price for film stock and procesing is only slightly higher - I get about 22 minutes from a 1000ft load of readily available 35mm camera film stock. 

 

My only two concerns: I can't afford a modern camera which has a -perf option factory built-in (such as some Aaton models). So I was thinking of the expertly converted Arriflex 53 IIC, which was used very successfully as a Techniscope camera and is great (if not as great as modern cameras) for hand held.

And I don't know if 2-perf scanning is easy to come by. Let alone the price for good glass. I have no idea which focal length is considered standard (when assuming that 50mm is the average standard for 35mm spherical and 25mm for 16mm. That would make it for Techiscope around 38mm I suppose (?). 

 

Any suggestions (including talking me out of the idea) highly appreciated. Please take into consideration that I am located in the EU (the good stuff is usually all in the US).

 

Merry Christmas to all members of this great board. I have learned a LOT from the very helpful members. Here is a huge Thank You!!!!

 

Christian


Edited by Christian Schonberger, 23 December 2017 - 04:01 AM.

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#2 Samuel Berger

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 04:09 AM

Hello Group,

 

A couple of times I heard that 35mm 2-perf is an excellent alternative to Super 16mm film. 

 

Lately I discovered some sources (facebook), where older, used film cameras are being sold in near perfect condition - for very accessible prices (no glass though). No worries: I won't buy anything without making 100% sure I know what I will get. 

 

I am obviously on a budget, but doing all the math: 35mm 2-perf (even with the sides cropped to 1.85:1 or 16:9) seems to be excellent value for money since the improvement regarding grain and resolution is clearly visible and the price for film stock and procesing is only slightly higher - I get about 22 minutes from a 1000ft load of readily available 35mm camera film stock. 

 

My only two concerns: I can't afford a modern camera which has a -perf option factory built-in (such as some Aaton models). So I was thinking of the expertly converted Arriflex 53 IIC, which was used very successfully as a Techniscope camera and is great (if not as great as modern cameras) for hand held.

And I don't know if 2-perf scanning is easy to come by. Let alone the price for good glass. I have no idea which focal length is considered standard (when assuming that 50mm is the average standard for 35mm spherical and 25mm for 16mm. That would make it for Techiscope around 38mm I suppose (?). 

 

Any suggestions (including talking me out of the idea) highly appreciated. Please take into consideration that I am located in the EU (the good stuff is usually all in the US).

 

Merry Christmas to all members of this great board. I have learned a LOT from the very helpful members. Here is a huge Thank You!!!!

 

Christian

 

Bom dia, Christian, you might want to check out my 2-perf Arri 2C for sale at http://www.cinematog...showtopic=76068

2-Perf scanning is very easy to get by, Cinelab does it and Gamma Ray Digital scan them.

The lens you're looking for is a 50mm.

 

Boa sorte e Feliz Natal.


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#3 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 04:25 AM

2 perf scanning isn't a problem, it's 2 perf teleine which is a bit harder to come by.

Remember that 2 perf would use the same focal length lenses at 4 perf, it's just the top and bottom would be cropped.
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#4 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 05:38 AM

Samuel and Tyler,

 

Thanks a lot for your fast replies. 

Don't have the $$$ right now, otherwise I'd buy that sweet Arrifex right now. That model even exceeds what I was hoping for. AWESOME! Gotta wait until I have enough money.

Thanks for the info regarding the focal lengths. Since I am very likely not shooting in the "scope" format (1:2.35-ish), but rather (as I mentioned) in 1:1.85 or the slightly less wide 16:9, for various reasons - the crop factor comes in. I know it's all a matter of the way one looks at it. A 50mm lens is always a 50mm lens. On 2-perf 1:1.85 I just have the sides cropped off a little (will compose protected for it though), hence my estimated 30 simethingmillimeter as a standard. But one can see it as a cropped 50mm. No problem: got all that figured out.

 

BUT that's all a pipe dream as for now. Just wanted to check. LOVE the good old Arriflex 35 IIC. Kubrick loved this machine (as you all know of course) The new restored versions (I suppose from the camera originals, so no dye transfer and/or optical anamorhic printing onto 4.perf 35mm) of The Leone "Dollar" trilogy and Once Upon A Time In The West look just outstanding. "Shame" (2001, Arricam Lite, Techniscope) also was filmed on 2-perf. Looks great! 

 

Have a great Holiday season and thank you!

Christain

 

Thanks again 


Edited by Christian Schonberger, 23 December 2017 - 05:47 AM.

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#5 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 03:46 PM

If you're gonna shoot 1.85:1, why not shoot 3 perf or super 16? Both formats are pretty close to 1.85:1 native. The cost savings of shooting 2 perf to pull 1.85:1 out of it, doesn't make MUCH sense to me.
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#6 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 04:43 PM

Remember that 2 perf would use the same focal length lenses at 4 perf, it's just the top and bottom would be cropped.

 

This is not accurate. Remember he is cropping to 2.35:1 because of the 2 perf, and then to 1.85:1 from that.

 

3 & 4 perf 1.85:1 has a diagonal of 27.28mm. 2 perf 1.78:1 has a diagonal of 17.88 (I don't have the numbers 1.85 handy) 3 perf 1.85:1 has a negative area over double the size of 2 perf 1.85:1

 

Therefore, a 50mm on 3 or 4 perf 1.85:1 would have the same FoV as a 32mm on 2 perf cropped to 1.85:1, or to go the other way, a 50mm on 2 perf 1.78:1 is equivalent FoV to a 75mm on 3 perf 1.85:1


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#7 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 05:34 PM

Tyler and Stuart: thanks a lot for your kind replies!

 

Yup: after thinking it through: Super 16mm is the way to go - it is easier to get a good body and good glass - and modern scans of the camera original neg look really good. 

 

Yes: that was my idea: since I also crop the sides (on 2-perf 35mm that is), I guesstimated that a standard lens would be 30-something millimeters. of course I would go Super 35mm 3-perf in the blink of an eye. But that will be forever out of reach. 

 

Thanks again for sharing your thoughs and expertise!

 

Merry Christmas (or whatever it is you are celebrating)!

 

Happy shooting (with a camera of course)!

Christian


Edited by Christian Schonberger, 23 December 2017 - 05:37 PM.

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#8 Robin Phillips

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:13 PM

two other things just to consider in favor of s16 over 2perf (assuming you dig the grainier look of s16):

 

1 you're at about $175 per 10 minutes of stock vs $315ish for 10 minutes of stock in 2 perf (although you tend to be able to get really good deals shortends and recans for 35 much easier than on 16);

 

2 no threading on the SRs and Aaton LTRs, which can be a great time saver if you're doing a show thats mostly running and gunning. Or if you're lazy and still intimidated by gears like myself lol


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#9 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:52 PM

Robin,

 

Thanks for the reply. No problem with the grain on S16. It's fine enough (obviously depending on stock) for my projects and I tend to be really careful to nail the exposure (including lower ASA/ISO ratings on color neg if needed).

About threading: at the moment I am shooting with a humble S 16 modded K-3 (loop formers removed, quirks solved) and I have no problem with the really fiddly threading, including double checking and open running a few bursts, before closing and tape sealing, to make sure the loops are good, stay and all runs fine). Sure: with a coax mag it's different. No film chamber and the pressure plate is part of the mag itself. I'm fine with both - I'm not a professional, so I take my time (and keep the gate clean hahaha) as long as the body/mag work perfectly. IMHO 16mm/S 16 needs really good glass, because you don't need to "bang up" an image that's too clean unless you want the Roger Deakins (deakinizer) effect. 

 

Happy holidays,

Christian


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#10 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 04:25 AM

This is not accurate. Remember he is cropping to 2.35:1 because of the 2 perf, and then to 1.85:1 from that.


I didn't know he was cropping 2 perf to 1.85:1 until after my original comment.
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#11 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 04:31 AM

two other things just to consider in favor of s16 over 2perf (assuming you dig the grainier look of s16):
 
1 you're at about $175 per 10 minutes of stock vs $315ish for 10 minutes of stock in 2 perf (although you tend to be able to get really good deals shortends and recans for 35 much easier than on 16);


Actually 35mm stock is pretty cheap these days. Studio's are shooting so much of the stuff, the re-can places like Reel good film here in Hollywood, sell 50D, 250D and 200T for between .17/ft to .22/ft which is A LOT lower than the .36/ft for new 16mm stock. They just did a firesale of 250D for .14/ft!

2 no threading on the SRs and Aaton LTRs, which can be a great time saver if you're doing a show thats mostly running and gunning. Or if you're lazy and still intimidated by gears like myself lol


Yes, the quick-change cameras save a lot of time. Luckily the Aaton 35III and Penelope are both quick-change 35mm cameras, 3 perf or 2 perf depending on the version. I have an Aaton III and it's the same size/shape/weight as my XTR, but shoots 3 pref.

Over-all 3 perf is about double what it costs to shoot s16. But 2 perf, with reduced film stock, is so close to S16 pricing that if you're going to shoot 2.40:1 aspect ratio, I would just go for 2 perf instead of S16. However, in the case of the OP who wants to shoot 1.85:1, I personally wouldn't bother.
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#12 Robin Phillips

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 06:46 PM

Actually 35mm stock is pretty cheap these days. Studio's are shooting so much of the stuff, the re-can places like Reel good film here in Hollywood, sell 50D, 250D and 200T for between .17/ft to .22/ft which is A LOT lower than the .36/ft for new 16mm stock. They just did a firesale of 250D for .14/ft!


Yes, the quick-change cameras save a lot of time. Luckily the Aaton 35III and Penelope are both quick-change 35mm cameras, 3 perf or 2 perf depending on the version. I have an Aaton III and it's the same size/shape/weight as my XTR, but shoots 3 pref.

Over-all 3 perf is about double what it costs to shoot s16. But 2 perf, with reduced film stock, is so close to S16 pricing that if you're going to shoot 2.40:1 aspect ratio, I would just go for 2 perf instead of S16. However, in the case of the OP who wants to shoot 1.85:1, I personally wouldn't bother.

 

0.14/ft for 250D? wow... that makes that last clairmont 2perf BL4 alan gordon has look all the more shinny lol


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#13 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 08:59 PM

0.14/ft for 250D? wow... that makes that last clairmont 2perf BL4 alan gordon has look all the more shinny lol


Yep! That's their "bulk" sale price, when they have it. Right now they're out of it, but if you're on their mailing list, they will announce another sale.

Those BL4's are enticing, but they're huge cameras and very heavy for $14k. If they were $6k each, (there are I believe 4 of them) then it makes sense.

I hate to be a hypocrite, but I really want one of those Moviecam SLMKII's they've got in 3 perf.
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#14 Samuel Berger

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 09:18 PM

I hate to be a hypocrite, but I really want one of those Moviecam SLMKII's they've got in 3 perf.

 

At that price it will be there forever.


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#15 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 01:34 AM

At that price it will be there forever.


Until someone breaks down and makes them an offer. I mean it happened recently as they sold the 2 perf Arricam's for BUKO bux!
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#16 Samuel Berger

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 01:50 AM

Well I'm definitely done buying cameras, I hope. At some point Gear Acquisition Syndrome crosses over into hoarding. ;-) I own so much Super 8/16mm camera crap I'll never use.


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#17 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 02:32 AM

Well I'm definitely done buying cameras, I hope. At some point Gear Acquisition Syndrome crosses over into hoarding. ;-) I own so much Super 8/16mm camera crap I'll never use.


HA! I'm not there yet and I have 12 super 8 cameras, 2 "professional" 16mm cameras, 2 non-professional 16mm cameras and a 35mm camera, going on 2 at some point in the near future.

I need at least 2 more S16 cameras. LOL :)
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#18 Samuel Berger

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 02:52 AM

Yeah but you actually rent those out and are making money from them.

I also have that Ursa Mini 4K that I'm never going to use because of the PL mount. My only PL lens is an Angenieux 25-250mm zoom and it's huge. Only stops to f3.9 I think.

Should have waited for EF to come along.


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#19 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 03:20 AM

If you ever wanna sell that 25-250 "wink wink, nudge nudge"
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#20 Robin Phillips

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 02:31 PM

I would like to officially apologies for driving the thread off topic by bringing up the clairmont toys.

 

but since we're off topic, gotta know, anyone know what AG let their arricam LT's 2perf movement go for? I know it vanished not long after Otto's 2 perf sold

 

again, sorry OP. hopefully this was a useful thread before the toy geekout happened lol


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