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Can we talk about "The Crown"?


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#21 Samuel Berger

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 01:44 AM

Does anyone know if the actual image quality is different between the F55 and the FS7?


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#22 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 02:35 AM

Sam.. yes it is.. different sensor F55 is global shutter ,native 1250 ISO and color filter.. and different Raw.12 bit not 16 bit like f5/55..but the codec is the same.. actually fs7 has XAVC L (Long GOP and Prores (could be an option) I wasn't trying to wind you up.. I thought you were joking.. its a much cheaper camera but the highest selling "professional" video camera by a long way I would wager.. at the moment anyway.. there is a Fs7 mark II with a PL type mount (locks anti clockwise) and stronger mount, chassis .. also has an incredible electric variable ND.. Ive used it once and its really amazing.. build is a bit plastic and for TC in and V mount you need the extra "back" extension unit.. best bang for the buck of any camera around .. for the average corp or TV production not shot Raw,needing global shutter..alot of complex grading..TBH there is probably very little discernible difference .. if lenses are the same..

 

Stuart.. Yes to avoid the terrible artifacts seen in the old film camera,s.. together with some Sony engineers I trained up.. I have actually made up a special bespoke Digital Green DG #1 -10 set.. to set my work apart when shooting film..


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#23 Samuel Berger

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 03:50 AM

Thanks, Robin. Was trying to understand the price difference. It might be my tired old eyes but I couldn't really see any difference between them in footage.

 

I have a Mini 4K which I'm selling, I was going to replace it with a Mini Pro but then I saw stuff from the Canon C300 Mark II and wasn't sure any longer. As you well know, I really only like film but sometimes it's about getting a job. And I feel that learning about these can help me learn different perspectives in post-production as well.

 

At the moment I'm deciding between the Ursa Mini Pro and the C300 Mk2. The UMP is definitely less money and my 4K accessories transfer over, as well as my EF lenses from my BMPCC. It would probably make the most sense but the C300 Mk2 just blew me away. Is it used in episodic at all?

 

I think it's a good thing I didn't replace my 2 Eclair NPR packages with an Aaton XTR Prod. They are on the same level in terms of image quality if lenses are the same. But with video this isn't the case. I hate buying anything for video because it can take me six months to research and decide on a purchase, and then something new comes out and I have to start all over.


Edited by Samuel Berger, 29 December 2017 - 03:51 AM.

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#24 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 04:47 AM

I don't know if the C300 MKII is used on any episodic TV.. but its a pretty high level camera and certainly used for a lot of corp /doc /broadcast work ..and some features where they need to get into tight places.. I think its fair to say it would be seen as level up from the Mini pro and for sure a more "known" camera to producers and directors .. and really if your freelance this is huge issue.. buy the "wrong" camera for your market, how ever good it is.. and its a door stop.. ask anyone who bought a Pana Varicam LT for corp shoots.. its almost Sony  Fs7/F5/55 or C300 II or nothing..

 

Personally due to using the C300 a few times years ago and just hating the design I have avoided them ever since.. but I know people with there C300 II that love it and it makes them a fortune.. and of course they are a very much accepted camera..

 

These days there is more of firmware up dates, than new models ..as it used to be at least..!.. 


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#25 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 10:01 AM

 

I'm grateful for the answer, but there's no need to be suspicious. 

 

Is anyone willing to post the difference between the two?

 

The FS7 is a budget camera, in the same price bracket as the Ursa Mini Pro, and the Canon C300. The F55 is the top of line camera, about to be superseded/replaced by the Sony Venice.

 

I've used both, sometimes together, on various shows. The FS7 is a great little camera, although it needs to be properly accessorized for professional use. The pictures are lovely. Good dynamic range and color. Some people don't like Sony color, but that's hardly an issue any more with Log recording.

 

The F55 has all the same features and codecs, but in a bigger, better made body. It also has a different sensor, color filter array, and color science. The FS7 looks good, but compared to the F55 it is lacking. You can team the FS7 and F5 up together as A and B cameras with no problems, but with the F55 you can see a difference. Its colors are more natural looking, and it has slightly more dynamic range, due to its lower native ISO.


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#26 Samuel Berger

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 01:52 PM

Thanks, Stuart & Robin.

 

Interesting that producers/directors would not be familiar with Ursa Minis at this point. They're amazing once you get the pink out. I use an IR cut filter for that, but it would be nice not to have that issue to begin with.

 

I noticed the C300 MK2 dropped in price tremendously. It started off at $16,000 I think and it's now under $10,000.

 

Are you both in agreement on the C300/2's design being unlikable? I just really like the image, I don't think I've ever felt like that about a digital camera before, except for loving the BMPCC for web work.

Only thing is, BMD cameras never seem to cause issues in resolve. I'm not familiar with Canon's codec.


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#27 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 02:17 PM

I'm not a fan of the C series designs at all. Some folks seem to love them, I'm not one of them. I much prefer the Sony, and the extra sensitivity it has over the C series is also wonderful for my needs.

 

Blackmagic is a non-starter, it seems, for most professional shoots.


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#28 Samuel Berger

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 02:20 PM

Blackmagic is a non-starter, it seems, for most professional shoots.

 

But why?


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#29 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 02:21 PM

Mostly because no major directors have used it on a theatrical film, nor have many, that I know of, TV shows A-Cam'd it. It can be hard to get from rental houses, producers aren't familiar with it, and it gets bad press from shoddy QC. Plus, often you can get a Red for the same price or cheaper which at least has had the marketing behind it to make people aware of the camera.


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#30 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 02:27 PM

Are you both in agreement on the C300/2's design being unlikable?

Any camera that is designed to have the viewfinder on the back, instead of the side, is not a professional camera in my opinion. Also Canon really made some strange choices regarding their codecs. The C300 II is either 8 bit or RAW, and nothing in between.

 

Blackmagic is a non-starter, it seems, for most professional shoots.

 

But why?

 

Rightly or wrongly, Blackmagic has a reputation for being a bit cheap and nasty. Everything I've heard about the Mini Pro says that this is not true, but the reputation remains.


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#31 Samuel Berger

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 02:33 PM

Any camera that is designed to have the viewfinder on the back, instead of the side, is not a professional camera in my opinion. Also Canon really made some strange choices regarding their codecs. The C300 II is either 8 bit or RAW, and nothing in between.

 

 

 

Rightly or wrongly, Blackmagic has a reputation for being a bit cheap and nasty. Everything I've heard about the Mini Pro says that this is not true, but the reputation remains.

 

That's incredible. I heard a thing or two about quality control issues and the user base being unhappy about BMD screwing over the resale value with the loyalty program and about releases being delayed. But the footage always looked good to me.

 

Well...what would you buy?


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#32 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 02:44 PM

My camera choices:

 

Sony FS7 (Doc/Corp/Reality/Bradcast/Run n Gun)

Alexa Mini (Features, Commercial, Music Video, basically anything)

Red Helium (things requiring VFX, producers who like marketing more)

 

Alexa Mini; though PRICY is the best investment at current time I think.


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#33 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 02:46 PM

In the URSA Mini range, I've seen the EVA-1 footage, and it looks really, really good. Plus, you have the professional video division of Panasonic behind it, with literally tens of years of experience in making cameras durable, and exhibiting great QC. The dual native ISO is a great feature.

 

As much as I want to like Blackmagic, they don't have the same experience in making professional cameras as the big manufacturers do. 


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#34 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 02:49 PM

Alexa Mini; though PRICY is the best investment at current time I think.

 

I suppose it would depend on what type of investment your planning to make. While it might make since to invest in an Alexa Mini - isn't that camera around $50,000 for the base unit? That is a LARGE investment for a camera system, unless you're planning to put it to a lot of use in the next couple of years. Camera's like Arris, F55, Reds, etc. make much more sense a rental solution rather than a purchase. For even the average cinematographer, by the time you pay off the investment on a $50,000 camera it's going to be obsolete. Rental houses can usually return their investment, which in my opinion is why these cameras are priced as they are. They are not priced for purchasing by individuals.

 

Same reason why its hard to find a Blackmagic at a rental shop - they are priced for purchase, and in many cases - its cheaper to purchase one than to rent one for a shoot. 

 

And likely the reason why you don't see BMD cameras and such on professional shoots is simply because the camera rental budget is so small in proportion to the cost of the project, that it makes little sense to try and scrimp in the camera dept. You use what everyone else is using. What is tested to have worked, etc. BMD could have had this market as well, but their price-point basically precludes them to small projects. 


Edited by Landon D. Parks, 29 December 2017 - 02:55 PM.

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#35 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 03:05 PM

Well...what would you buy?

I wouldn't.

 

Owning a camera only makes sense if you can keep it working often enough to pay it off 12-18 months, or if it's cheap enough that you don't care about paying it off entirely before it's obsolete. The market I'm in requires more expensive packages, and a lot of flexibility in terms of what camera I use. The shows I've done this year have equalled over $100k in rentals, but it's all been with different camera systems.

 

The cameras I would use:

 

Arri Alexa/Alexa Mini

Sony F55

Sony FS7

 

Sometimes I shoot with RED cameras, but it's not usually my decision.


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#36 Samuel Berger

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 03:26 PM

Yeah I think I should stick to what I already own. Problem is, that Ursa Mini 4K is PL mount so I only use it with a M42 to PL adapter. I'm never going to be able to afford PL glass.

I need to sell that thing.


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#37 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 03:35 PM

Sigma has some pretty affordable Cine-Zooms in PL. Tonika also has the 11~16


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#38 Samuel Berger

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 04:15 PM

Stuart makes a good point, though. I saw the Sigmas and Tokina and the Rokinons and they're all pretty expensive. Doesn't make much sense to spend all that on lenses. Mostly I use it with an Angenieux 25-250, but at T3.9 it's not really ideal for most indoor projects.

 

If the buyer already owns PL glass I'm sure he'll find use for it.


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#39 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 05:09 PM

The Sigma cine-zooms appear to be great lenses - but they are almost $4,000 a pop - and you really need the set of two in order to complete a standard zoom range. Basically, in terms of cheap PL mount, $8,000 is about as 'cheap' as you can go. 


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#40 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 06:39 PM

I think the Tonika comes in around 2K or so for the PL version, so 10K for 11 through 100mm isn't bad!


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