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Can we talk about "The Crown"?


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#41 Samuel Berger

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 07:12 PM

I think the Tonika comes in around 2K or so for the PL version, so 10K for 11 through 100mm isn't bad!

 

If you have the camera to match it, yes. I get the feeling the Mini 4K will be a hard sell to potential employers, so I was thinking of going for the C300 MK2. But the advice on this forum so far has been nearly 100% against it.

Mind you, I was going to buy a 2-Perf sync sound camera and couldn't afford it because I'd have to buy all the lenses that the seller had, and since I haven't sold my Sergio Leone camera I wouldn't be able to do it.

 

But I can buy a C300 Mk2 on credit and do the payments.

I personally love the eye candy the camera produces, but I need to think with my brain, not my eyes.


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#42 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:04 PM

The C300 II took a major price reduction (it was over priced to begin with) when the Fs7 (which is under priced) began to take over its market.. almost 50% I think.. at the prices now.. and the fact you like the picture .. and are ok with the design.. then yes why not buy it.. AND it fits your market..you could look at second hand camera,s too.. f5 or f55 are pretty cheap now.. and as solid state usually in pretty good condition .. not like the old drum /tape days.. nothing to wear out really..

 

The C300 is a Marmite camera.. you either love it or hate it.. its an odd design for a pro camera.. you will need a base plate.. as would most camera,s now.. but you would need a 3rd party EVF for sure..unless you are ok working totally off the monitor.. but they exist ..Zacuto is popular.. so a couple thousand for pimping out fully.. rods, Mattbox, shoulder plate.. maybe another small on camera monitor..the C300 ruled supreme in the HD years as it was s35 sensor 50 Mbps and the F3 only 35.. ie non broadcast. Both had the EVF at the back !!. Fs7 came along and killed them..C300II came out same design. ! . then eventually the C700.. not enough and way too late.. they have probably sold 10 of them..

 

The Fujinon MK zooms are probably the best bet .. Sigma zooms are not all par focal.. and the 50-100 breathes like me running a marathon .. 

 

Production as just worried about everything.. thats their job I guess.. they have a herd mentality .. if they had good results and no post problems from one  or two cameras they want to stick with it..or stuff their friends have produced .. Arri Alexa for eg.. safety in numbers.. its just one less thing for them to worry about .. how ever good a camera is.. if its not on their list.. they literally have them.. they will just reject it 100%.. its tricky as freelancer when new camera,s come out. if you follow your heart you can end up with an expensive door stop... 

 

But make sure its going to make you a return.. eg for Stuart were the camera is always changing and its all rental obviously not worth buying one camera..


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#43 Samuel Berger

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:29 PM

Thanks, Robin. I will keep all this in mind.

 

I've just looked at the zoom you've mentioned and it's only available in Sony E mount. I guess it won't work with the C300 Mk2.

 

STAR TREK CONTINUES was shot on a F3, so I'm familiar with the results. I just don't trust the workflow and Tyler has mentioned it enough times that I really don't want a Sony. Not to mention, the company screwed me over in 2002 and I'm never going to buy anything from them.

 

But very good advice, sir, many thanks.


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#44 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:47 PM

ah yes thats true .. there are two in the MK set.. they have just recently actually had f5/55 FZ mounts made by two 3rd party manufactures  by popular demand.. seems politics didn't allow fuijnon make an EF mount !..  are there no adaptors though ..?

 

Dont buy an F3.. a good camera .. but way out dated now for a freelancer jobbing DP.. you would need an ext recorder for everything ..Tyler aside.. there are a few million people getting very good results from Sony camera,s..all the footage is green though of course.. 

 

C300II is a very well accepted workhorse camera.. with a nice picture.. price is relatively cheap.. if you are ok with the rather odd "kettle" camera design.. I think some  buyers also have alot of stills EF lenses they can use..


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#45 Samuel Berger

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 09:04 PM

 

Dont buy an F3.. a good camera .. but way out dated now for a freelancer jobbing DP.. you would need an ext recorder for everything ..Tyler aside.. there are a few million people getting very good results from Sony camera,s..all the footage is green though of course..

 

I think I know why. Electrical engineers will appreciate the difficulty of nubbing together a regurgitative purwell and a superaminative Wennel "sprocket".  Indeed, this proved to be a stumbling block to further development until, with the Black Magic camera sensors, it was found that the use of anhydrous nagling pins enabled a kyptonastic boiling shim to be tankered.

 

Undoubtedly, the Black Magic sensor has now reached a very high level of technical development.  It has been successfully used for operating Nofer Trunnions.  In addition, whenever a barescent S-KOR motion is required, it may be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocating dingle arm to reduce sinusoidal depleneration.

 

But if you don't use an IRCUT filter, it's all pink.


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#46 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 09:05 PM

all the footage is green though of course.. 

 

OSAKA GREEN ™


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#47 Samuel Berger

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 09:07 PM

OSAKA GREEN ™

 

Okay now I'm going to be paranoid that I won't get any work because my images aren't green enough.

 

But, with BMD, pink is the new green!


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#48 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 09:12 PM

Samuel, 

 

I'd say the sensible choices are either a Canon C300 II, or a Sony FS7. Both are accepted cameras, and widely used. The dealbreaker for me with the Canon is the lack of a 10 bit codec when shooting 4k. If that doesn't matter to you, then either camera is a good choice.


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#49 Samuel Berger

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 10:11 PM

Samuel, 

 

I'd say the sensible choices are either a Canon C300 II, or a Sony FS7. Both are accepted cameras, and widely used. The dealbreaker for me with the Canon is the lack of a 10 bit codec when shooting 4k. If that doesn't matter to you, then either camera is a good choice.

 

Thanks, Stuart. I'm looking into it now. I do like the previous advice of simply renting the stuff, but I have a feeling I'll never be able to learn if I did that. The digital stuff is pretty hard for me. I feel that what I need to do is set my eyes on one system and stick to it and learn it. And of course, do the research. Buy once, cry once.

 

Edited to correct the name spelling. I regularly correspond with three people named Stewart, please forgive the occasional lapse.


Edited by Samuel Berger, 29 December 2017 - 10:13 PM.

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#50 Samuel Berger

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 05:18 PM

Real quick, any thoughts on this?

 

https://www.bhphotov...24_105_kit.html

 

The C200 seems similar to the C300 but cheaper due to no broadcasting codec.


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#51 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 05:26 PM

You haven't said what kind of work you're intending to do with it.


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#52 Samuel Berger

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 05:28 PM

You haven't said what kind of work you're intending to do with it.

 

Feature work (mostly indie) and VFX (I'm a Nuke compositor).


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#53 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 05:41 PM

Won't the lack of a proper, high quality codec affect your VFX work? Or are you intending to shoot RawLite?


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#54 Samuel Berger

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 05:54 PM

Won't the lack of a proper, high quality codec affect your VFX work? Or are you intending to shoot RawLite?

 

I was thinking of shooting RAW dng just like with the Ursa Mini 4K.

 

if that's not possible with a C200 and an Atomos, that again shows how little I know.

 

Maybe I'm being foolish in jumping from the known (BMD) to the unknown (Canon) just out of fear of not being perceived as professional.


Edited by Samuel Berger, 30 December 2017 - 05:58 PM.

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#55 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 07:01 PM

There is a good side and a bad side of "widely used" cameras.

The good side is that there is a demand. The bad side is that EVERYONE HAS ONE, which drives DOWN the price you can get for them.

For instance, everyone and their cat has a Red dragon, it seems ubiquitous in Hollywood. Even Alexa Mini's are becoming so popular, you've got dozens of choices right on Sharegrid. So where it's great to have what everyone else has, there is also a problem with buying expensive cameras you won't be able to repay. A fully dressed up C300MKII is around the same price as a well setup FS7, which is A LOT MORE MONEY then a BRAND NEW URSA Mini Pro. 

 

My philosophy has always been to own what others don't own. Everyone went the DSLR route, I went the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema route. Everyone went the Arri SR and 416 route, I went the Aaton XTR route. Everyone went the Premiere route, I went the Avid route. There is ALWAYS going to be a demand for "The other" piece of equipment and when you're the only guy of maybe a few with one, then you've got the market cornered. Yes it's more difficult to convince people to shoot with something they're unfamiliar with, but the URSA Mini Pro is NOT difficult to use, it's far easier than any of the Sony or Canon cameras with their incomprehensible menu system and in the case of Sony, an entirely different way of shooting. I will say for the record the C300MKII is a brilliant looking camera, blows the Sony's out of the water in every way. The only better looking imager is the Alexa and the only "cheaper" but still good looking imager, is the URSA mini 4.6k. I don't put the Sony's anywhere near those cameras, they're in a completely different pile. 

 

The URSA Mini Pro has 3 problems... It's missing an OLPF and IR filter, which is built-in to the C300MKII and pretty much all of the higher end Sony's. The 3rd problem is the FPN at higher then 1600 ISO, but honestly if you're shooting at more than 1600 ISO on a regular basis, umm... get faster glass lol. So the OLPF/IR issue is solved already, there is a 3rd party kit that slides right in. So that's not a big one anymore.

 

So yea... I mean that's why I like the URSA Mini Pro! :P


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#56 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 07:50 PM

 

I was thinking of shooting RAW dng just like with the Ursa Mini 4K.

 

if that's not possible with a C200 and an Atomos, that again shows how little I know.

 

Maybe I'm being foolish in jumping from the known (BMD) to the unknown (Canon) just out of fear of not being perceived as professional.

 

 

Re perceived as professional.. I don't want to be accused of snobbery again ! but the C200 is a bit on the prosumer limit..  apart from pretty low level corp work.. as an A camera I think many productions will not see it as a "pro" camera.. I know people who put them on gimbals but not as an A camera.. the C300II is for sure classed as Pro and often an A camera for broadcast and mid to high end  ish corps.. you get what you pay for..

 

Tyler ..I see what your saying.. but purely as a freelancer gun for hire..wanting to work on stuff of a higher grade than they are now.. buying the camera that no one is asking for, for that work, will not further that career or pay the rent.. :).. these camera,s are nothing like the price of high end camera,s of 10 years ago.. if you have the work, they pay off very quickly ..maintenance is very very low.. really your average broadcast/corp dp out there will get alot more work from an fs7/C300II than a pocket or URSA.. a racing driver with a golf cart ,although unlike the other cars..will not win any races.. 

 

Again just for the record.. still don't get the idea to shoot with a Sony camera .. "its entirely different way of shooting".. how so..? EI is the same as Arri /RED or any camera that has EI.. is just a concept not a Sony technique or priority software.. Ive shot with Amira and Pana LT in the recent past and didn't do anything fundamentally  differently .. what is this Sony Voodoo..  except for the Green of course .. which is actually a feature BTW.. 


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#57 Samuel Berger

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 08:01 PM

 what is this Sony Voodoo..  except for the Green of course .. which is actually a feature BTW.. 

 

Robin thanks for the reply. I did some online sleuthing and it seems the green reputation now belongs to the Alexa. I even watched a video comparing the image from the Alexa to the Ursa Mini Pro and the commentary said the Alexa had a very green cast.

 

As for the rest of your post, where does it end? I mean, if I get the Canon C300 Mark II in EF, will the EF mount be seen as prosumer? Will someone actually say "If you were a real pro you'd use PL mounts"?

 

One thing I noticed is that the C300 Mark II and the UMP are both in the "approved" list of cameras for Netflix partners. But the C200 wasn't. I'm unsure why that is. It shouldn't concern me as I don't work for them, but it makes me wonder if that list reflects public opinion of what a "pro" camera is.

 

https://backlothelp....quirements-v2-1


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#58 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 08:42 PM

I did some online sleuthing and it seems the green reputation now belongs to the Alexa. I even watched a video comparing the image from the Alexa to the Ursa Mini Pro and the commentary said the Alexa had a very green cast.

 

When I first started shooting with the Alexa, back in 2012, it did have a slight green cast. We used to set the camera 'Tint' control to compensate. More modern Alexas don't have the same problem.

 

In the case of Sony, an entirely different way of shooting.

It doesn't matter how often you say this Tyler, it still doesn't make it true.


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#59 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 08:45 PM

It must mean the C300II / UMP can shoot "true" 4K 4096 17-9 ratio.. Ive only ever shot corps for Netflix, but even they had to be 17-9 which I could get on my F5 (with the internal 4K rec option )..  even if I had toted a fully rigged Alexa studio down to their offices I would have been turned away..

 

 Im not going to be shooting Netflix original dramas anyway soon.. but I could with my camera at a scrap .. the f55 has had a great boost from the Netflix 17-9 4096  iron clad rule..

 

I dont think EF lenses would be a problem on a C300II .. compared to turning up with a C200.. there are plenty of EF mount "pro" lenses.. depending on the project and the director gear knowledge .. turning up with only stills lenses might be a problem ..apart from being a pain to work with.. focus and Iris wise..the lens I own ..Canon CN7 cine zoom is also available EF mount (its a Canon !) and is a standard work horse zoom for doc/corp/broadcast also all their prime lenses can be EF..

 

The Mini Pro is undoubtedly a good camera.. my advise is only from a freelance jobbing cameraman's view point.. TV broadcast and mid to higher end (ish) corps.. actually this year alot more corp than broadcast .. I have never once had a request for a BMC camera..RED or Alexa for that matter..  Panasonic LT once this year.. they supplied the camera and was specially for the 5000 ISO function..(talk about confusing menus ! the Sony is very simple in comparison ).... more than half has been 4K.. mostly 3840 16-9..  every request ,camera wise has been f5/55.  fs7. and C300.. (the C300II request have been fine with the F5 as an alternative) apart from the Pana LT shoot everything single shoot Ive done this year has been my f5.. with sometimes fs7 as a B camera .. one was  3 x fs7II .. so for the DIT they wanted to keep it all XQD cards rather than my f5 SxS..but I would say the f5 acceptance has been hugely lifted by the run away success of the fs7..

 

Yes I believe I mentioned the Arri green way back.. hence my work with the Sony elves .. deep in the bowels of Tokyo.. to perfect the Tokyo Green  TG ™ filter for the Venice ..heavily influenced by the legacy Osaka Green pioneered by Lord Brereton OBE


Edited by Robin R Probyn, 30 December 2017 - 08:45 PM.

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#60 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 10:21 PM

It must mean the C300II / UMP can shoot "true" 4K 4096 17-9 ratio..


So does the URSA mini pro, PLUS you get RAW with it, the C300MKII only shoots 10 bit 4:2:2 @ 410Mbps XAVC-I in an IFRAME codec. The URSA Mini records 12 and 10 bit 444 and 422 Pro Res from UHD down to 1080p up to 60FPS. Plus built-in, with no external, no add-on's, no special anything, records 12 bit Cinema DNG RAW at up to 4.6k.

So if you want 8 bit 4:2:2 i-frame for an interview? got ya covered. Want 10 bit 4:2:2 i-frame but don't wanna break the bank on bit rate, got ya covered. You want 444 color space, but don't want 12 bit, got ya covered. You want different versions of raw, compressed, uncompressed, got ya covered.

Sony, Panasonic, Canon, these guys don't have those options at all. They have long-gop options, which are worthless to anyone who isn't uploading directly to youtube, but that's it. Most of the cameras don't even offer raw and when they do, it's some oddball JEPG nonsense or some specilty hardware.
 

I dont think EF lenses would be a problem on a C300II ..


It's a huge problem, have you looked at the pricing on the canon EOS mount cine style zooms? They're like $18 - $20k used! Shit man, for that much money, I can have a set of Zeiss standard speeds AND an old-school PL mount zoom.

The EOS mount also has another issue, when you invest in glass, you're investing in a mount standard that pretty much nothing else but Canon still cameras are compatible with. So 4 years down the road you want the new XYZ camera and it's PL mount, now what do you do? In the case of Samuel, like me he also likes film cameras... so there goes any EOS glass.

Best thing about the URSA Mini Pro... $249 lens mounts. You choose what you want... B4, EOS, Nikon, PL, you can get them all for under a grand. So now you can buy any lenses you want, similar to the F5/F55.
 

The Mini Pro is undoubtedly a good camera.. my advise is only from a freelance jobbing cameraman's view point.. TV broadcast and mid to higher end (ish) corps.. actually this year alot more corp than broadcast .. I have never once had a request for a BMC camera..RED or Alexa for that matter..


I don't think Samuel is making corporate videos. Besides, I do corp, training and industrials non-stop, I've never once had someone TELL ME what camera I can and can't use. Samuel, like me, is a filmmaker... He'll be using the camera in a creative way for his own projects and to help other's create their own projects. Also, I've had little to no difficulty convincing my clients to shoot on whatever I want.
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