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So when did Red make this momentous decision?


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#1 Keith Walters

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 01:04 AM

"WEAPON shoots simultaneous REDCODE® RAW and Apple ProRes or Avid DNxHD/HR recording"

So, am I reading this right? After years of doggedly Albratossing themselves by making Redcode Raw the only available recording format for Red cameras, and as a result continually getting sand kicked in their faces by the supposedly lower-spec-ed  Alexa, you can now record on "open" (non encrypted) formats?
When did this happen, and why?
And what do they mean by "simultaneous"? Do you get a choice?

 


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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 01:10 AM

I think it's been well over a year since they enabled ProRes and DNxHD recording? Simultaneous would mean that Redcode raw would still be recorded at the same time. I don't know if every type of ProRes can be recorded and at what resolutions -- at some point, the data rates would get higher than compressed raw since you are talking about RGB.


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#3 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 05:38 AM

At some point, it becomes a zero-sum game. You can a higher-res sensor with more compression or a lower-res sensor with less compression; the subjective impression of sharpness (and the more objective results from things like chromakey) might end up being largely the same.

 

At the same time, our ability to fit more image quality into less data space is now dependent largely on our willingness to spend money and power consumption on ever-cleverer encoders. Yes, there are practical and theoretical limits to this (to entropy coding in general,) but we're probably nowhere near them.

 

P


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#4 Rakesh Malik

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 04:05 PM

I think it's been well over a year since they enabled ProRes and DNxHD recording? Simultaneous would mean that Redcode raw would still be recorded at the same time. I don't know if every type of ProRes can be recorded and at what resolutions -- at some point, the data rates would get higher than compressed raw since you are talking about RGB.

 

ProRes and DNxHD came with the DSMC2 brains, so it's been nearly two years now. 

 

I've found the ProRes/DNx option to be useful for small projects, but not so much the simultaneous option, since it fills the cards up so quickly.

 

8K at 12:1 requires something like 30% less space than 4K 444, and it's easier to grade, so that was a winner for us on our last feature film production.


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#5 Keith Walters

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 10:39 PM

But to answer my question, can you just record ProRes and not anything else? The Red site is far from clear on this.
It would sound like an obvious and sensible option, but Red have a history of rejecting the obvious and sensible.
And, what was your last feature film production? Is it anything likely to be available on Blu Ray?


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#6 Rakesh Malik

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 12:48 AM

Yes, you can choose just ProRes or DNxHR. I do it for smaller shoots sometimes.

 

We're looking for distributors and investors... hopefully it will be available on BluRay as well as VOD... but we're just finishing up the color grade.

 

https://youtu.be/F9aWP89eZ8o


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#7 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 05:26 AM

8K at 12:1 requires something like 30% less space than 4K 444, and it's easier to grade, so that was a winner for us on our last feature film production.

 

I never quite understood this.

 

If you don't want to use so much space, just shoot ProRes SQ or something (they'll do that, right?) Oh, but the picture quality!

 

Oh. Yes. You'll be using more compression, just like you are when you're shooting 12:1 8K...

 

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#8 Rakesh Malik

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 12:41 PM

 

I never quite understood this.

 

If you don't want to use so much space, just shoot ProRes SQ or something (they'll do that, right?) Oh, but the picture quality!

 

Oh. Yes. You'll be using more compression, just like you are when you're shooting 12:1 8K...

 

P

 

You haven't actually used a Red, eh? I did quite a bit of experimenting with compression ratios before I settled on 12:1. 12:1 sounds extreme... but it doesn't look at all extreme. On the contrary, it looks excellent and left me a lot of latitude for grading.


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#9 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 04:30 PM

Leaving a raw image as raw in theory is one-third the data of a conversion to an RGB codec if it is full resolution and uncompressed so I think when you start talking about 4K+ levels of resolution, its a legitimate question as to whether a compressed raw codec is better than one converted to RGB tripling the amount of information to handle and then compress... if the goal is a combination of data reduction while maintaining quality and resolution.

I mean, think about it in theory uncompressed raw would take up the same data as an RGB conversion with a 3:1 compression if the pixel dimensions dont change.


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#10 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 05:15 PM

Granted, although almost all ProRes recordings are 4:2:2 component, so it's only 2:1.

 

In theory, the codec should be able to recognise and compress out the lack of entropy created by the Bayer reconstruction, but I'm not sure that's ever been specifically optimised for.

 

One of the most valuable things the manufacturers could do is to standardise raw. I'm not aware of any reason other than the need to claim exceptionalism that prevents it, assuming there were some standard ways to express a few coefficients.


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#11 Keith Walters

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 07:38 PM

FFS; why does every attempt to get straightforward technical information on Red products have to be like wading through a mangrove swamp in rubber boots two sizes too big.... 

So, what sort of ProRes are we talking about? It can't possibly be straight 4:2:2; that would be far too sensible. Don't be ridiculous.

But just for the sake of argument, let's suppose it is.

Does this mean that Red have finally bitten the wax tadpole and actually included the on-board full-De-Bayer module that everybody has been telling them they needed? If so, is it any bloody good?

 

"....but I'm not sure that's ever been specifically optimised for."

This ... sort of implies that there are bits about the Red Codecs that you are sure about   :rolleyes:  Which ones were they then....


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#12 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:08 PM

http://www.red.com/products/weapon

 

APPLE PRORES

ProRes 422 HQ, ProRes 422 and ProRes 422 LT at 4K (4096 × 2160) up to 29.97 fps 
ProRes 4444 XQ and ProRes 4444 at 2K (2048 × 1080) up to 120 fps
ProRes 422 HQ, ProRes 422 and ProRes 422 LT at 2K (2048 × 1080) up to 120 fps
 
AVID CODECS
DNxHR HQX at 4K (4096 × 2160) 12-bit up to 29.97 fps 
DNxHR HQ, SQ and LB at 4K (4096 × 2160) 8-bit up to 29.97 fps  
DNxHR 444 at 2K (2048 × 1080) 12-bit up to 120 fps 
DNxHD 444 and HQX (1920 × 1080) 10-bit up to 120 fps 
DNxHD HQ, SQ and LB (1920 × 1080) 8-bit up to 120 fps 
 
I believe it is full-debayer when recording internally and half-debayer when recording from the SDI-out.

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#13 Keith Walters

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 12:28 AM

Thanks. I couldn't find that information for some reason.

"17+ Stops"?!
I wonder how they work that out, considering there aren't even any stills cameras actually capable of that much range.
That would mean there could be areas of pixels over 100,000 times as brightly illuminated as other areas on the same sensor, and the camera electronics would be able to capture it all for final display on the mighty 6-stop range of the average LCD TV. But there's not a lens in existence that could create that situation, so I wonder how they calculated it.

Jannard should have had one of those fitted to Elon Musk's spacefaring Tesla. Think of the battery life!

(And in space, no one can hear the fan running.... Not that it would do you much good).


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