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K-3 & Cine Kodak Model K Conversion?


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#1 Jayden Martin

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 03:16 PM

I'm new to shooting in film. I haven't even exposed a frame yet, because of the lack of availability of double perf 16mm film. I ordered an S16 gate for my incoming K-3, and am wondering if there are any other components that will need replacing in order to shoot in super 16.
I also have a Cine Kodak Model K which I thought may be interesting for specific projects/scenes and was wondering if it is worth it or even possible to convert this model to super 16.
Any advice is more than welcome and would be greatly appreciated.
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#2 Nicholas Kovats

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 05:16 PM

One does not need double perf 16mm in your K3. There are multiple options for single perf 16mm stock.
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#3 Dom Jaeger

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 06:58 PM

Well if the Model K is a double perf camera you can't make it S16!

 

I honestly don't see the point of converting these sorts of cameras to S16 anyway, even if you could. Modern stocks are fine-grained enough that you can crop 16:9 out of Standard 16 without it being a big issue, and especially with older cameras with a C mount or the various Kodak mounts which were made for standard 16 lenses, you'll find the wider focal lengths may not cover. The viewfinders will have Standard 16 framelines that won't match, etc. 

 

People convert K3s to S16 or Ultra 16, but again I don't see much point. The viewfinder doesn't cover the expanded frame, the stock zoom lens doesn't cover at the wide end (even worse if the lens mount is not re-centred for S16), and the gate isn't really designed to be widened since the conversion removes the side rail supporting the film on one side of the frame. It can work, but you're introducing potential issues like scratching or focus breathing for the sake of slightly more resolution. It's a $150 camera, just use it as it is without worrying about S16, and focus on the art of filmmaking. 


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#4 Nicholas Kovats

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:41 PM

Well put, Dom. Enjoy the Regular 16mm cameras out there. But I must admit I lent my new unused K3 to an associate a few years ago and well, I have lost track of it. Oh, well. Finders keepers. :) I shot this with a Bolex Regular 16mm camera, i.e.   Password = bolex.


Edited by Nicholas Kovats, 14 February 2018 - 08:42 PM.

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#5 Jayden Martin

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 07:55 AM

Thank you for the quick responses. All of this was quite helpful enlightening.
I'm not sure of using regular 16 film because of how hard it is to find where I am (rural Ontario). Though if anyone has any ideas on where I can get colour double perf film (some online store, surely) it would be much appreciated. I had initially gotten the Kodak as a display model really, so I'm not too hurt about that either way.
With what research I did on the K-3 beforehand, you'd figure I would've known it shoots S16. Information about film & film cameras seems too difficult to find, even with a good search engine, nowadays.
I've seen some stuff on the subject of the off center viewfinder when using an S16 gate from which I gathered that it wouldn't be all too difficult to work with, but I feel that it could hinder the framing, possibly take away from what's going on in the far right end of the picture.
Again, thank you all. You have no idea how much I appreciate this. And as I said earlier: any and all advice is welcome.
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#6 Jayden Martin

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 08:01 AM

Well put, Dom. Enjoy the Regular 16mm cameras out there. But I must admit I lent my new unused K3 to an associate a few years ago and well, I have lost track of it. Oh, well. Finders keepers. :) I shot this with a Bolex Regular 16mm camera, i.e. https://vimeo.com/170564399  Password = bolex.

Beautiful video. I dig the intensity & suspense in the music (as well as the tone & fx on the guitar, being a musician myself). I didn't see the whole thing yet (missed some of the middle, didn't quite make it to the end) but, wow. It's hard to find video of full frame 16mm footage. Most is already cropped to 16:9 by the time I'm able to see it, so that shed some light on the subject in and of itself.

Edited by Jayden Martin, 15 February 2018 - 08:10 AM.

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#7 Dom Jaeger

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 09:57 AM

I think you're confusing double perf film with the Standard 16 format. The only reason you would need double perf film is if the camera itself needs it, usually because the sprocket rollers that move the film have teeth at both edges (or very occasionally because the pull down claw is on the left, non-standard side of the gate). You tend to only find that in certain pre-WWII cameras, or in the long discontinued cartridge magazines of magazine cameras.

A Standard 16 camera doesn't need double perf film if it only has one row of teeth on the sprocket rollers.

You can shoot Standard or Regular 16 format on single perf film, you just don't use the area where the soundtrack used to go (that previously had the extra row of perfs). It's simply a slightly less wide frame of exposed picture area. Super 16 was developed as a way to use that extra space once it didn't need to be used for a soundtrack, but it meant widening the gate opening on one side, offsetting the lens mount to recentre it with the new opening, modifying rollers and any other surfaces now in contact with that part of the film edge now being exposed, and opening or offsetting the viewfinder optics to accomodate a wider picture. The ground glass or viewfinder frame also needed to be replaced or remarked to match the new exposed aspect ratio.

An old camera with double perf sprocket rollers can sometimes be modified by turning down the second row of sprocket teeth in order to allow it to accept single perf film.
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#8 Jayden Martin

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:39 AM

Thanks, Dom. Very informative.
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#9 Jayden Martin

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:43 AM

Thanks, Dom. Very informative. And yes, you're correct in the assertion that I had confused double perf and regular 16mm as the same thing. I must have misinterpreted the texts from my research.
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