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Carl Zeiss high speed MkIII T1.3 x4 sets !


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#1 Matias Nicolas

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 10:10 AM

hi! Im shooting in a couple of months a tv serial about war. With 4 SonyF55, and the directors are asking me for Carl Zeiss highspeed lenses, so as  to have a less sharpy image from the sony.

So, do you think it is easy to find 4 compatible sets? Which tests should I do? Do you feel shooting in a 1.3 stop I will have terrible cromatic aberrations? Im more used to shoot with S4, master, or ultra.. not with these "old or vintage" lenses... 


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#2 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 03:33 PM

It shouldn't be too hard to find 4 matching sets of Superspeeds. They are workhorse lenses and just about every rental house has a set or two. As long as they've been properly maintained, you should be fine.

 

Wide open, you'll notice that they are softer than modern lenses, and will also display lower contrast. Chromatic aberration will be visible, but not terrible. Once you've stopped down to T2.8, or 4 it will be difficult to see any difference in sharpness between Superpeeds and S4s or Ultraprimes. They may be 'vintage' lenses, but they are really only about 30 years old, and lens technology hasn't changed that much.


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#3 Matias Nicolas

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 07:37 PM

yes I think the same... but as we have some vfx composition scenes, I don't know if they are a good choice... 


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#4 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 06:01 PM

yes I think the same... but as we have some vfx composition scenes, I don't know if they are a good choice... 

Why wouldn't they be? Unless you're planning to shoot your VFX scenes at t1.3, I don't see how you'd have a problem.


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#5 Dom Jaeger

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 03:00 AM

Super Speeds are actually pretty good in terms of chromatic aberration. Regarding the interplay between CA and aperture, the more common type of CA you'll find in cinema lenses like these is longitudinal CA, which doesn't improve much by stopping down. Longitudinal CA gets worse towards the edges of the frame, and tends to show on tangential surfaces (facing towards or away from the centre).

 

Here's a quick comparison of a Zeiss 18mm Super Speed and a Cooke 18mm S4 showing a tiny part of the top left corner of a lens test projection:

 

CA comparison Zeiss Cooke.JPG

 

Note that the CA wide open doesn't get much better at T4, and that the CA of the Cooke S4 is probably more noticeable than in the Super Speed. To put it in some sort of perspective, the resolution of those radial lines is about 10 line pairs/mm, so the edges of colour on the Cooke are about 5 microns wide, less than the pixel pitch of an Alexa sensor. The Super Speed has slightly wider but softer colour fringing wide open, which is more to do with halation accentuating the CA. That halation and overall veiling glare is what makes a Super Speed seem a bit soft wide open, but as Stuart said, stopped down a little they are generally just as sharp as Cookes.

 

 


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#6 Dom Jaeger

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 06:15 AM

Sorry, that should be lateral CA, not longitudinal.
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#7 Matias Nicolas

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 08:51 AM

Super Speeds are actually pretty good in terms of chromatic aberration. Regarding the interplay between CA and aperture, the more common type of CA you'll find in cinema lenses like these is longitudinal CA, which doesn't improve much by stopping down. Longitudinal CA gets worse towards the edges of the frame, and tends to show on tangential surfaces (facing towards or away from the centre).

 

Here's a quick comparison of a Zeiss 18mm Super Speed and a Cooke 18mm S4 showing a tiny part of the top left corner of a lens test projection:

 

attachicon.gifCA comparison Zeiss Cooke.JPG

 

Note that the CA wide open doesn't get much better at T4, and that the CA of the Cooke S4 is probably more noticeable than in the Super Speed. To put it in some sort of perspective, the resolution of those radial lines is about 10 line pairs/mm, so the edges of colour on the Cooke are about 5 microns wide, less than the pixel pitch of an Alexa sensor. The Super Speed has slightly wider but softer colour fringing wide open, which is more to do with halation accentuating the CA. That halation and overall veiling glare is what makes a Super Speed seem a bit soft wide open, but as Stuart said, stopped down a little they are generally just as sharp as Cookes.

 

 

ok, and do you think that using these lenses, will softer the image of the sony F55 shooting T1.3?


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#8 Ignacio Aguilar

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 05:22 PM

You'll probably find more trouble shooting at T1.3 than advantages. You can always shoot SuperSpeeds at T1.8-T2.5, give your focus puller a chance and still get a softer & lower contrast image than that of Masters and Ultras. If they are still too sharp to your eyes, you can always use a very light Soft FX or the lightest Black Promist.

At T1.3 these lenses are very soft, very low in contrast and show too many aberrations for most situations.

 

Here's a test I've just released comparing the T1.3's to the previous series of Zeiss High Speeds, the T1.4's: 

 


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#9 Ignacio Aguilar

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 05:48 PM

Maybe you should consider too the Zeiss T2.1 Standard Primes. They perform well below T2.8 without being too vintage, but neither too sharp or contrasty. They match T1.3’s well, but they vignette more. I use the T2.1’s often to fill the missing focal lenghts of the T1.3’s, such as the 40mm or 135mm.
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#10 Matias Nicolas

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 08:06 PM

You'll probably find more trouble shooting at T1.3 than advantages. You can always shoot SuperSpeeds at T1.8-T2.5, give your focus puller a chance and still get a softer & lower contrast image than that of Masters and Ultras. If they are still to sharp to your eyes, you can always use a very light Soft FX or the lightest Black Promist.

At T1.3 these lenses are very soft, very low in contrast and show too many aberrations for most situations.

 

Here's a test I've just released comparing the T1.3's to the previous series of Zeiss High Speeds, the T1.4's: 

 

Ok! This test is really usefull! thanks !! 

... But... have you done it with a person's face? 


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#11 Matias Nicolas

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 08:14 PM

Maybe you should consider too the Zeiss T2.1 Standard Primes. They perform well below T2.8 without being too vintage, but neither too sharp or contrasty. They match T1.3’s well, but they vignette more. I use the T2.1’s often to fill the missing focal lenghts of the T1.3’s, such as the 40mm or 135mm.

Well, as I didn't shoot with the MKIII ever before, your knowldege for me is important... cause it is hard to find 2 sets of highspeed in Colombia. But I think I can find 2 sets of 2.1 here, and also additional lenses... Do you really think, it is  better to shoot with the 2.1 Car Zeiss? Cause I was planning to shoot really wide open...  I've shot with the 2.1 some stuf in the past and I like, them... Now Im more use to shoot with S4 or similar price...  but the directors are insisting to shoot with the MKIII... cause they want to soften the image

also I prefer to avoid a Softfx... I don't really like those filters, and get messy with flares... they wash all the image when flareing lights to the lense... 


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#12 Ignacio Aguilar

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 05:35 AM

Hello Matias, you can certainly shoot T2.1's wide-open and get a more than usable image. Don't know if that lenses suit your needs better or not... you should really test them together and get your own idea I think. Sometimes I prefer the Standards over Superspeeds just because they have many more focal lenghts available, but for certain situations the T1.3's maybe more desirable because they don't vignette as much and have that extra stop.

 

I have another test of the T1.3's:

 


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#13 Matias Nicolas

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 08:16 AM

Hello Matias, you can certainly shoot T2.1's wide-open and get a more than usable image. Don't know if that lenses suit your needs better or not... you should really test them together and get your own idea I think. Sometimes I prefer the Standards over Superspeeds just because they have many more focal lenghts available, but for certain situations the T1.3's maybe more desirable because they don't vignette as much and have that extra stop.

 

I have another test of the T1.3's:

 

 

We are plannning to shoot with these lenses, only to smooth the sharpness of the Sony F55.

That is our only main goal about this equipment. But what i've seen in your test... mmmm... I think I don't really like the way T1.3 or T1.4 perform in the image, I need to see it with a skin ... but at 1.3 ... 


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#14 Matias Nicolas

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 08:19 AM

Hello Matias, you can certainly shoot T2.1's wide-open and get a more than usable image. Don't know if that lenses suit your needs better or not... you should really test them together and get your own idea I think. Sometimes I prefer the Standards over Superspeeds just because they have many more focal lenghts available, but for certain situations the T1.3's maybe more desirable because they don't vignette as much and have that extra stop.

 

I have another test of the T1.3's:

 

 

We will be shooting between the 24 - 35 & 50 lenses... Its true its difficult to find more lenses in between ... And Im shooting in Bogota, Colombia, and there is only one set of these mkIII ... production is panning to subrent them from Mexico ..  

It's a pitty the 2.1 vignette in the corners... 


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#15 Ignacio Aguilar

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 09:49 AM

Bear in mind all series of T1.3 share the same glass & optical design, the upgrades were all mechanical. So you can actually shoot with Mk1-Mk2-Mk3 as there wont be differences between the series.
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#16 Miguel Angel

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 03:10 AM

Matias, 

 

I love the Super Speed lenses and you can intercut them with the Standard Speeds with no problems at all. 

 

I shot the following things with the Supers so you can take a look and see how you like them.

 

The Tattoo - Trailer

 

Shot at around T2.8 / T4 with Black Promist 1/2 + Black Diffusion 1 and 90% of it on a 35mm Superspeed.

 

Triviño

(this one is all natural light)

 

35mm Superspeed T2.8 With Glimmerglass 1 + 2

 

All shot with Alexa Mini. 

 

I shot this years ago (It was the very first thing that I shot in my life) with the Standard Speeds at T2.8 / T4 if I remember correctly.

 

No Existe El Adios

 

I shot a feature last year with the Super Speed lenses at T1.3 and I don't think that there is any need to shoot at T1.3 at all.

 

The difference between shooting at T1.3 and T2.8 is going to be so subtle that it would be better to give your focus puller a chance to have everything sharp than not catching vital performance moments for the sake of shooting at T1.3. 

 

To be honest, I don't even see the difference between T1.3 and T2.8 unless it is a super close up.  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

Well, I do, I see that at T2.8 things are in focus!  :D  :lol:

 

Have a lovely day!


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#17 Matias Nicolas

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 11:51 AM

Bear in mind all series of T1.3 share the same glass & optical design, the upgrades were all mechanical. So you can actually shoot with Mk1-Mk2-Mk3 as there wont be differences between the series.

O! thats a good info !!! thanks !!! cause there is an old set of MK1 in Colombia ..


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#18 Ignacio Aguilar

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 12:31 PM

Be aware that some people also refer as MK1 to the previous series of lenses, the T1.4's with the three-blade iris (see my test), which are usually known as High Speeds or "B-Speeds", cause they are in Bayonet mount (they can be put on PL mount with a hard or removable PL adapter). The T1.4's came out circa 1975 ("Taxi Driver" was among the first movies to use them because they were owned by C.Op. Fred Schuler) and the first generation of T1.3's circa 1983 already in PL mount. 

 

Problem is that Zeiss never came out with an official name for these sets of lenses. So you should check that the Mk1's you have found are actually T1.3's and not PL converted T1.4's. 


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#19 Matias Nicolas

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 09:21 PM

Be aware that some people also refer as MK1 to the previous series of lenses, the T1.4's with the three-blade iris (see my test), which are usually known as High Speeds or "B-Speeds", cause they are in Bayonet mount (they can be put on PL mount with a hard or removable PL adapter). The T1.4's came out circa 1975 ("Taxi Driver" was among the first movies to use them because they were owned by C.Op. Fred Schuler) and the first generation of T1.3's circa 1983 already in PL mount. 

 

Problem is that Zeiss never came out with an official name for these sets of lenses. So you should check that the Mk1's you have found are actually T1.3's and not PL converted T1.4's. 

 

ok ! Yes, I remember the Zeiss set lenses with bayonete & PL adaptor ... and the traingular bhookes... but I will avoid those lenses I think ... But I need the 1.3 !! jej


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