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HDV To 35mm


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#1 Richard Boddington

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 07:26 PM

I'm curious to know if any one has seen any tests or actual real work yet of HDV to 35mm, projected in a theatre?

How did it look?

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#2 Richard Boddington

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 12:44 PM

So no one has seen this?

Ok then, have you "heard" any thing about how it looks?

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#3 Stephen Williams

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 01:23 PM

So no one has seen this?

Ok then, have you "heard" any thing about how it looks?

R,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Hi Richard,

I've heard its not good. However people says DV - 35mm is great! If 28 Days 'Looked Great' I need to get my eyes fixed!

Stephen
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#4 Richard Boddington

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 03:39 PM

Thanks.

Logically one would think HDV to 35, would look better than 720X480 DV to 35.

Logically one would think that.

However, one aspect of the format debate that is often over looked is the quality of the lens. 16mm behind a top of the line Zeiss prime can look a lot better than 35mm behind a low budget lens.

So if you shoot with HDV and the cheap zoom that comes on the camera, maybe you can improve the quality of the film transfer by starting with a higher quality image at the start using cinema primes? Provided of course you could mount them onto the HDV unit.

Just thinking out loud here.

I can't reveal why I am asking this question, I will be booed out of the forum :D

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#5 Stephen Williams

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 04:11 PM

Thanks.

Logically one would think HDV to 35, would look better than 720X480 DV to 35.

Logically one would think that.

However, one aspect of the format debate that is often over looked is the quality of the lens.  16mm behind a top of the line Zeiss prime can look a lot better than 35mm behind a low budget lens.

So if you shoot with HDV and the cheap zoom that comes on the camera, maybe you can improve the quality of the film transfer by starting with a higher quality image at the start using cinema primes?  Provided of course you could mount them onto the HDV unit.

Just thinking out loud here.

I can't reveal why I am asking this question, I will be booed out of the forum  :D

R,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Hi,

The weak link is fields and the Mpeg compression. The next generation of Panasonic cameras could be what you are looking for. If you have more money to spend then the Drake or Kinetta recording raw data to hard drive should provide very good stock footage when printed to 35mm!

Stephen
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#6 Richard Boddington

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 09:13 PM

Ah ha, well you see the thing is I would never shoot stock footage on any format other than 35mm, it's too valuable :D

The HDV question for another narrative project, that a friend *wink wink* is working on.

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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 11:35 PM

I was just thinking of you the other day when I read this Millimeter article on HD stock footage and how this new company was shooting a bunch of stock footage on HDV for future clients that were going to need it for their HD projects, which seemed kind of a questionable business plan to me.

I mean, IF one were going to specialize in HD-only stock footage, I would think you'd want to shoot at a quality high enough for all HD uses; afterall, you could always dub something down to HDV. I would be using something like the F950 or Viper and recording to HDCAM-SR 4:4:4, which then could be sold to anything of that HD level or lower.

But shooting HDV for HD stock footage is like shooting DV for NTSC stock footage, or 16mm for 35mm stock footage.
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#8 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 04:45 AM

Hi,

Yes, an odd decision.

However, I'm not completely convinced of the ability of the average producer to see beyond "But it's cheaper!"

Phil
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#9 Richard Boddington

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 09:12 AM

Well I try to stick with 35 for 90% of my shoots then it can be used for any thing.

There is of course a big DV NTSC market out there so some times I shoot the same set up with a 3CCD DV camera as well as film, the reason is that many DV users feel the DV intercuts better with the rest of their project.

As for HDV stock not sure who will buy it, the market for HD stock is still tiny, very few users. The vast majority of people still request standard def. Few are willing to chuck out their heavy investment in SD gear.

Most HD buyers are TV show people that want to have their show HD ready if and when all shows are broadcast in HD. If you look at the Discovery/TLC crop of shows you'll notice that a huge number of them are shot with the Canon XL1/GL1 and the 3CCD Sony models, as you often see these cameras in the shots of the other camera guy. I'm talking about all the decorating shows, car shows, garage shows, Myth Busters etc etc.

Question is why don't they switch to HDV? Of course many of these shows have a very short shelf life so they may not even care.

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#10 Tim J Durham

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 10:10 AM

Most HD buyers are TV show people that want to have their show HD ready if and when all shows are broadcast in HD.  If you look at the Discovery/TLC crop of shows you'll notice that a huge number of them are shot with the Canon XL1/GL1 and the 3CCD Sony models, as you often see these cameras in the shots of the other camera guy.  I'm talking about all the decorating shows, car shows, garage shows, Myth Busters etc etc.

Question is why don't they switch to HDV? Of course many of these shows have a very short shelf life so they may not even care.

R,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've shot about a dozen different travel, design and landscaping shows for HGTV, TLC, Travel Channel, Discovery, the Food Network and NONE are shot on Mini-DV. So far very few, if any, are broadcast in HD.

The shows I work on would be very difficult to shoot with consumer cams due to the crappy lenses and lack of jam-synch time code capability. As of now, it would require gutting a good deal of relatively new gear (Cams, lenses, decks, etc.) to switch over to HDV. Not to mention training people in the new workflow. The large production companies have entire facilities set up to pump out shows shot in DVCAM or DigiBeta and there's little compatibility. There is no compelling reason to switch at the moment so the prod. cos. will milk their current systems until they are forced to switch.
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#11 Richard Boddington

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 10:27 AM

Well I agree with the second part of your post.

But I'm confused about the first part where you say....

"and NONE are shot on Mini-DV"

I think I know what the GL1 and XL1 look like, I see them used on the genre of shows I refer to.

Certainly the vast majority of underwater footage you see on the Discovery/TLC shows is Mini DV. I see them loading the Mini DV camera into the housing on the show.

Not sure about your "NONE" claim.


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#12 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 10:28 AM

When I visited the set of "Monster Garage" a few years back, they were using something like a DSR300 as "A-camera" and PD150 DVCAM as "B-camera".

My impression from talking to Bexel Video is that quite a few PD150's were being used for reality shows.
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#13 Richard Boddington

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 11:07 AM

Yes you see the PD150 a lot in those shows, of course it records in Mini DV and DVCam mode. Most I'm sure use the DVCam mode.

A short search did pull up some info about Discovery/TLC shows shot on Mini DV.

For example:

?Exhibit A? 5 seasons - TV series for Discovery Channel - and TLC (?The Secrets of Forensic Science?). Also CTV, APTN, TVO. Includes dramatic re-creations of crimes. Hosted by Graham Green. Stylized look with portable Mini DV cameras. Awards for best photography 2000 Geminis and Best Cinematography 2000 CSC Awards. Also Nominated best photography 1998 and 1999 Gemini Awards. Directors on ?Exhibit A? include Holly Dale, Harvey Crossland, Ried Dunlop, Alan Goluboff, Allan Moyle, Gail Harvey, Deborah Samuel, Allan Gough, and Peter Wellington. (DOP/Operator 55 shows)

Notice it says: Stylized look with portable Mini DV cameras

Link: http://www.stringerc...sume_drama.html

In another article on this series it says....

"Stringer said that when the producers decided to shoot a second season, the Canon XL-1 mini DV camera was available. It featured interchangeable lenses and sound options as well as in-camera speeds of 1/30th, 1/15th and 1/8th, although, unlike the fixed-lens VX-1000, it did not offer a 1/4th shutter speed."
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#14 Tim J Durham

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 01:55 PM

Well I agree with the second part of your post.

But I'm confused about the first part where you say....

"and NONE are shot on Mini-DV"

I think I know what the GL1 and XL1 look like, I see them used on the genre of shows I refer to.

Certainly the vast majority of underwater footage you see on the Discovery/TLC shows is Mini DV.  I see them loading the Mini DV camera into the housing on the show.

Not sure about your "NONE" claim.
R,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I meant none of the shows *I"ve* shot were done with mini-DV cams (I did say that, didn't I?) and that isn't ENTIRELY true. For one, they use a PD-150 for a stationary before-after effect, but only to show the cameraman (who usually is not the same guy who shot on day 1) where the original shot was set-up. If you add up all the shows on all Discovery nets, HGTV, Food Net, etc. there must be around 1000 shows by now and the budgets are plummeting downward. Mini-DV
shows are, or soon will be, all over the place. They use PD-150's and XL-1s because the tapes play in their DV-CAM decks, so there is no additional cost (other than buying the cams) to a show shot on a DSR-500 or 570.

So I guess the point I was making is that switching over to HDV would require scrapping the whole fleet and they won't do that until they are forced to. NEW shows from here out will be a different story. I'm sure we'll be seeing them as soon as these top-of-the-dial nets begin broadcasting in HDTV. I can't imagine a terribly compelling argument for doing a show like "Trading Spaces" in HDTV other than marketing buzz.

When shooting those shows, there is very little time to set up a tripod, let alone light it nicely.
So the producers IDEAL of "reality" shows in HDTV would far surpass the viewers "reality" of it.
Atleast that's what I think and I've been wrong before. The greater detail works to both extremes, looks better when you have the time to do it right, looks worse in the run-and-gun
reality of reality shows.
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#15 Christopher Wedding

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 02:50 PM

Most HD buyers are TV show people that want to have their show HD ready if and when all shows are broadcast in HD. If you look at the Discovery/TLC crop of shows you'll notice that a huge number of them are shot with the Canon XL1/GL1 and the 3CCD Sony models, as you often see these cameras in the shots of the other camera guy. I'm talking about all the decorating shows, car shows, garage shows, Myth Busters etc etc.

Question is why don't they switch to HDV? Of course many of these shows have a very short shelf life so they may not even care.

R,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]


Richard, I know for sure that 2 TLC shows are not shot as described above...OverHaulin, TLC, is shot on DigiBeta and Rides,TLC, is shot on the f900. (I don't think you meant the big 3CCD Sonys when you mentioned it above.)
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#16 Richard Boddington

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 03:29 PM

When I said 3CCD I was refering only to the three chip prosumer line of cameras.

Which I maintain are used extensively for Discovery/TLC shows.

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#17 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 07:29 PM

These shows change their practices over the seasons too, so you may see one camera at work but they may be using something different this season.

The reason I was at the Monster Garage set was to shoot some 60i HDCAM material on an F900 as a test for the Discovery Channel. I've also seen part of an episode of "Trading Spaces" shot in 60i HDCAM that Sony showed at NAB three years ago.

So clearly there is some movement under way to convert some of their most popular shows over to HD for their Discovery HD Channel.
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#18 Richard Boddington

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 08:40 PM

So David, it begs the question would you shoot a season of a Discovery/TLC show?

If it would mean steady work over the year(s).

What about a TV show like, Desperate Housewives?

It's not a feature but they shoot 35mm and use feature film production values.

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#19 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 11:27 PM

I'll cross that bridge if I ever come to it.

Just depends on the show and my circumstances at the time. Although I'm such a sci-fi nut it would be tempting to shoot any show that takes place on a spaceship...
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#20 Richard Boddington

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 01:48 PM

"Although I'm such a sci-fi nut it would be tempting to shoot any show that takes place on a spaceship... "

Oh that's right I forgot.

I think I saw you at the last Star Trek convention, you looked quite dashing in your Klingon Commanders uniform. :D

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