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PL mount Super 16 Lenses...


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#1 Jason Banker

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 06:21 PM

Hi,

I have finally made a desicion and bought a Super 16 Aaton LTR 54 with a PL mount. Unfortunatly the camera didn't come with any lenses and need a quick fix so I can start shooting some footage.

To get up and running, I am just looking for about lens costing $1000 or less. PL mount lenses aren't cheap so is it better to spend $200 for a converter so I can use Bayonet mount lenses?

If so which bayonet or pl lenses should I consider? (they should cover the S16 frame)


Thanks
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#2 Mike Welle

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 07:51 PM

Hi,
Do you want inexpensive, quality lenses? Then the place to start is with Optar Illuminas--if you can get your hands on them. Sometimes you can find them for as little as $800.00 each. The Illumina 9.5mm and 8mm cover Super-16 with no problem--that's what they were designed to do. The Zeiss set goes down to 9.5. Some cover, some don't. You can probably find a used set of Zeiss primes on Ebay. I think I saw some on this site under lenses:

www.bblist.co.uk

If you want a zoom, the least expensive, high quality lens is the Cooke 10.4-52. You can pick one up for between $4,500-$5,500.

If you want a good telephoto try the Canon 300mm T2.8. Around $2,200.00

All of these lenses are on AbelCineTech's recommended lens list so you can have a lot of confidence in that.

Congratulations on your camera. I hope all of this information helps you.

Hi,

  I have finally made a desicion and bought a Super 16 Aaton LTR 54 with a PL mount. Unfortunatly the camera didn't come with any lenses and need a quick fix so I can start shooting some footage.

  To get up and running, I am just looking for about lens costing $1000 or less. PL mount lenses aren't cheap so is it better to spend $200 for a converter so I can use Bayonet mount lenses?

  If so which bayonet or pl lenses should I consider? (they should cover the S16 frame)
  Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Edited by Mike Welle, 21 July 2005 - 07:55 PM.

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#3 Jason Banker

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 09:08 PM

Which Angenieux zoom lenses cover S16 thru the whole range?

Should I consider buying a converter to Nikon or Arri bayonet?

What is the deal with using 35mm still camera lenses for S16?

Help..
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#4 Nathan Milford

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 09:16 PM

If you want a zoom, the least expensive, high quality lens is the Cooke 10.4-52.  You can pick one up for between $4,500-$5,500. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I really like the Cooke. It's a great lens. I think we might have a used one around here...
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#5 Jason Banker

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 10:34 PM

I really like the Cooke.  It's a great lens.  I think we might have a used one around here...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Nathan,

I actually bought the aaton package today. Still a bit shaken, but moving onward to the horrific world of lenses.

The cooke does seem to be a highly reguarded zoom lens. If you have one let me know. Are there any other decent options that might be around 2 or 3k?

Also is it better to invest the money into a set of primes or do people usually buy a zoom and rent primes?

Lastly should I consider a conversion adaptor for another type of lens that might give me more options that are a bit cheaper?

Thanks again
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#6 Mike Welle

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 11:08 PM

Please read this guide:

http://www.abelcine....deframeset.html

Which Angenieux zoom lenses cover S16 thru the whole range?

Should I consider buying a converter to Nikon or Arri bayonet?

What is the deal with using 35mm still camera lenses for S16?

Help..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


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#7 Christopher Wedding

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 02:01 AM

There's one zoom on here for around 2K...it didn't say what sort of mount.

http://www.visualpro...8&Cat=8&Cat2=20

Best of luck.
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#8 Jason Banker

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 03:25 AM

Mike, thanks for the link, its a perfect resource for Super 16.

So now my questions have changed a bit. The list of acceptable S16 zoom lenses is a bit short. If 4,500-5,500 is the cheapest you can go for a S16 zoom if I decide to go to a bayonet mount can I find any zoom that would be usable thru its entire range? Or is there a similar still 35mm Nikon zoom?

I realize that the lens is probably more important than the camera but I would like to know my other options.

Can someone comment on the quality, and use of still 35mm lenses with S16?

Edited by Jason B, 22 July 2005 - 03:29 AM.

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#9 Jason Banker

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 03:38 AM

There's one zoom on here for around 2K...it didn't say what sort of mount.

http://www.visualpro...8&Cat=8&Cat2=20

Best of luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Its the Angenieux 15-150mm for $1,900. Definatly looks like the best value. 15-150 is great and it says it works thru the whole range! Although T3 is a tough pill to swallow for 2k but..

..what else is wrong with this one? I don't see it on the abel s16 resource page.

What kind of mount is it, anyone know?

Edited by Jason B, 22 July 2005 - 03:40 AM.

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#10 Nathan Milford

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 08:22 AM

Nathan,

  I actually bought the aaton package today. Still a bit shaken, but moving onward to the horrific world of lenses.

  The cooke does seem to be a highly reguarded zoom lens. If you have one let me know. Are there any other decent options that might be around 2 or 3k?

  Also is it better to invest the money into a set of primes or do people usually buy a zoom and rent primes?

  Lastly should I consider a conversion adaptor for another type of lens that might give me more options that are a bit cheaper?

  Thanks again

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Congratulations. I look forward to evaluating it. I really like the Cooke myself, in this class of lens. But if you're not in to spending a few grand, getting a Nikon adaptor is a really good options. Still lenses will cover S16 quite easily and are cheaper. There are some archived conversations at the CML about it.

Here is a good resource. Right now you may just want something simple that'll project an image on to your filmplane. You can rent any specialized lenses or odd focal lengths...

If you'd like to see what we have in our used stockroom call Jeff at the number in my signature.

By the way did you ever ascertain the serial number?

- nathan
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#11 Nathan Milford

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 08:27 AM

Its the Angenieux 15-150mm for $1,900. Definatly looks like the best value. 15-150 is great and it says it works thru the whole range! Although T3 is a tough pill to swallow for 2k but..

..what else is wrong with this one? I don't see it on the abel s16 resource page.

What kind of mount is it, anyone know?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The Abel S16 page might be out of date... I will probably have to have it updated soon...

It'll probably come in an Arri Bayonet mount. You'll probably need to get it re-mounted in PL or buy a Arri B to PL adapter.

Remounting a lens can cost quite a bit as Angenieux probably doesn't stock that part anymore (the PL mount that is). You would have to get something machined by Les Bosher or someone of his ilk. An adapter will cost 500 or so.

- nathan
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#12 Mike Welle

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 08:55 AM

I hate to be a wet blanket, and dash your hopes, but if you look at the Abel Cine List of recommended lenses you will find that the Angenieux 15-150 is not there for a reason. It has comparitively lower image quality. Please follow this link: http://www.abelcine....16lenslist.html

In my opinion, a good rule of thumb to go by is: think twice if it wasn't designed for Super-16 in the first place. I know a lot of people like the Zeiss 12-120 T2.4 and Cooke 10.8-60 T3.0 with the range extenders (and I must confess I've never used them myself) but look at this portion of the AbelCine guide that says: "Because this conversion is, in effect, adding additional optics to an existing lens design, keep in mind that the resulting lens may bear a slight degradation in image quality." Even converting 16mm cameras to Super-16 can be risky as I discussed with the oscillating mirror of the Eclair ACL. If you can buy something that was designed for Super-16 in the first place, it's my opinion that you are better off (although the Eclair ACL is a great camera--expect headaches and heartaches when converting). The Cooke 10.4-52 was designed for Super-16. The Angenieux 15-150 and 16-44 were not. Also, it's best not to rush into this. I think it would be a good idea to read that guide and also Douglas Underdahl's 16mm Camera Book before you make a purchase decision. Also, please remember that all of this is my opinion from experience, and others will tell you differently. Best of luck.

Mike Welle


Its the Angenieux 15-150mm for $1,900. Definatly looks like the best value. 15-150 is great and it says it works thru the whole range! Although T3 is a tough pill to swallow for 2k but..

..what else is wrong with this one? I don't see it on the abel s16 resource page.

What kind of mount is it, anyone know?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


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#13 Chance Shirley

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 05:33 PM

I actually have an Ang. 15-150mm zoom and am in the process of looking for something sharper.

I've heard that zoom lenses suffer when used "wide open" (10 mm at F2.8, as opposed to 50mm at F5.6). Of course, I often end up shooting wide open.

Does anyone have any opinion of the "wide" performance of the Cooke 10.4-52 vs. a set of Mark I Zeiss primes? I prefer the speed and ease of shooting with zoom lenses but am considering getting a set of primes for "wide" work if the primes will make a big difference in picture quality and sharpness.
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#14 Mike Welle

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 06:59 PM

If you want to get an idea of exactly what the Cooke 10.4-52 looks like in Super-16 watch "The Draughtsman's Contract." It was shot with this lens. Much of the film was shot with candlelight and I assume they were using it at T2.8.

Primes tend to be sharper, faster and focus closer than zooms (with no breathing). However, the Cooke is an exception here as it does not breathe and focuses down to 1'6". Right now there is a Zeiss 11-110 going for around $6,100.00 USD on this site:

http://www.bblist.co.uk

Please click on: "Lenses Film." It is toward the top. It seems like a good deal. However, the Zeiss does breathe quite a bit when pulling focus and does close focus of only 5 feet. It has a macro function, however.

I own a full set of Optar Illuminas that were collimated by a skilled camera technician and I must say that after seeing the telecine footage, and comparing it to the images in "The Draughtsman's Contract," the Illuminas seemed more contrasty and colorful. A lot of this probably depends on the colorist, and, my method of comparison is not the best (I was using 50D and Vision2 and the Draughtsman's Contract was using the film stock available in 1982). A better test would be to shoot Super-16 Color Reversal with the Illuminas and the Cooke, project the footage, and see which one you like better. They are probably a good match (although I can't say for sure) because they are both warm in color.


Mike Welle


I actually have an Ang. 15-150mm zoom and am in the process of looking for something sharper.

I've heard that zoom lenses suffer when used "wide open" (10 mm at F2.8, as opposed to 50mm at F5.6).  Of course, I often end up shooting wide open.

Does anyone have any opinion of the "wide" performance of the Cooke 10.4-52 vs. a set of Mark I Zeiss primes?  I prefer the speed and ease of shooting with zoom lenses but am considering getting a set of primes for "wide" work if the primes will make a big difference in picture quality and sharpness.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Edited by Mike Welle, 22 July 2005 - 07:04 PM.

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#15 Jason Banker

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 09:59 PM

I have seen a bunch of arri bayonet mount lenses on ebay and was wondering what the quality is like with a converter from pl mount?

Would an Angenieux 16-44mm Zoom Lens, Arri-Bayonet mount work?

Edited by Jason B, 23 July 2005 - 10:00 PM.

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#16 Mike Welle

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 03:26 PM

Hi Jason,

I'm not sure I understand your question completely, but I'll try to answer it as best as I can. The image quality of the lens will not be directly affected by the mount--if the lens is seated properly. Images shot with an Arri-Bayonet mount lens create identical footage as ones with a PL-mount--so long as the lens is seated properly. If the lens is improperly seated that is where you run into problems. In this regard, Arri-PL lenses have more accurate mounting than bayonet mounts (although bayonet is much better than Arri Standard). Please see this website for more information:

http://www.rondexter..._conversion.htm

I would suggest CinemaTechnic for Arri Bayonet mount conversions to PL mount. Personally, I would not recommend the Angenieux 16-44 because it was not designed for Super-16. I sometimes go by the saying: Don't be pennywise but pound foolish. I would suggest buying something designed from the outset for Super-16. Right now there are some Optar Illuminas on Ebay--a 9.5 and 16mm.

Mike Welle


I have seen a bunch of arri bayonet mount lenses on ebay and was wondering what the quality is like with a converter from pl mount?

Would an Angenieux 16-44mm Zoom Lens, Arri-Bayonet mount work?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


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#17 andrewbuchanan

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 09:24 AM

I just Jorge at Cinematechnic tune up my Zeiss and Optar primes, and he had some interesting insights. Before I get into that though, Cinematechnic provided great service. Jorge does great work at fair prices and turn-around is FAST. Plus, he explains everything in miniscule detail - I learned a lot from just talking to him on the phone.

Anyway, he was able to project some my Optars against a set of MK2 Zeiss S16 primes, and said they compared very well - losing in contrast (by comparison) below f2.0. The rest of the range compared quite well. He was careful to qualify that it was not a comprehensive test of one lens against another (as there are many qualities to evaluate and a projector doesn't cover all of them), but that the Optars are very, very close to the Zeiss MK2 lenses. I've always heard this, but it was nice to hear it from someone who knows a great deal more than I do.

I also have a couple of MK1 Zeiss primes in my set. Jorge told me they have very good glass, but they are harder to use mechanically than the newer lenses (the smaller barrels spin faster, they are not marked as well for an AC, and they have very fine threading for the focus). This can lead to problems if you hang things off the front of the lens (like matte boxes and a couple of filters). In general, he seemed to think they were very good lenses if used carefully. I can tell you from using them with my Optars that they cut together very well.

Finally someone mentioned using Nikkors. I've done this a pretty good bit, and in my experience they are really good in the telephoto - super telephoto area, okay at normal perspective, and pretty bad at wide angle.
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#18 Robert Morein

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 06:21 PM

[quote name='Jason B' date='Jul 21 2005, 07:21 PM']
Jason, I have an Angenieux 15-150 with zoom and focus gears attached
by Optical Electro House. Pictures are at http://www.extranorm...picture_library
/forsale/photo/Angenieux%20w%20gear%20comp.jpg
The optics are flawless. It has a UV filter on it.
It has an Eclair CA mount that George at OEH can change.
This is the same model as Visual Products offers for $1900,
except mine has added gears.

I'd take $600 for it.

Regards,
Bob Morein (215) 646-4894
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