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Chroma adjustment in-camera?


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#1 Peter J DeCrescenzo

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 02:37 PM

I may have missed it, but there doesn't seem to be an adjustable parameter in my DSR-450WS camcorder's menus for chroma level. In other words, one setting which affects the color level/saturation of the entire video frame.

(My immediate application for this is in multi-camera shoots where I'd like to adjust my DSR-450WS to have a look similar to PD-150 and PD-170 cams. I've gotten them very close, but I'd like to adjust the saturation in the DSR-450WS video. For many of these shoots there won't be any color correction done in post.)

The 450's "Step Gamma" setting greatly affects both saturation and contrast, but how might I adjust saturation alone?

Phase/tint can be adjusted by offsetting the white balance, including a "WARM-COOL" adjustment, or "R" and "B" gain settings (no "G" gain available for white balance). But that's phase; I want to adjust chroma.

The linear matrix correction settings in the Paint section of the menus allow adjustment of a "MTX (MULTI) SAT" parameter, which is described as: "Adjusts the saturation level affected by the multi matrix correction function in every sixteen-axis mode."

I'm not certain, but there seem to be other parameters which must be set (including possibly defining the area of the frame to affect?) for this to work. I'd appreciate comments or suggestions on how to use it if it's an appropriate approach.

BTW, the user manual is available for download from the cinematography.com "docs" section for your reference. The linear matrix correction settings are listed on page 83.

Thanks in advance,

- Peter DeCrescenzo
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#2 Michael Nash

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 03:05 PM

I'm familiar with the DSR-500 but not the 450; it sounds like some of the menus may be different (really? Sony not consistent from model to model? gosh!) ;)

In the 500 as well as the D-30, there is a saturation control on the same page with the skin detail controls. It's a little misleading at first, because you might think it's a control for saturation for the skin detail function only, but it's not. It's a master chroma control.

If the DSR-450 does not have this, then the matrix saturation control you mentioned seems like the most likely candidate. Make sure that the matrix is turned ON, and that the correct matrix table is selected.
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#3 Peter J DeCrescenzo

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 04:22 PM

... In the 500 as well as the D-30, there is a saturation control on the same page with the skin detail controls. It's a little misleading at first, because you might think it's a control for saturation for the skin detail function only, but it's not. It's a master chroma control.

If the DSR-450 does not have this, then the matrix saturation control you mentioned seems like the most likely candidate. Make sure that the matrix is turned ON,  and that the correct matrix table is selected.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Thanks for your reply, Michael. The DSR-450WS has an item named "SKIN DTL SAT" which is described in the manual as: "Adjusts the saturation level for skin detail."

As described, it seems to pertain to skin detail, but I'll try it and see if it affects the entire frame (all colors equally.)

As for the 450's linear matrix settings, there are at least 12 of them, none of which have the word "table" in their name or description, so I'm not sure how to proceed.

If you or anyone else gets a chance to take a look at the user manual for the DSR-400/450 I'd appreciate even a very brief explanation of its linear matrix features.

Thanks again for your time,

- Peter
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#4 Simon Wyndham

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 05:36 PM

Hi Peter,

The Multi Matrix Sat will not affect the whole frame. The Multi Matrix is used for affecting slected colours. For example you could make a red dress black and white while leaving the rest of the picture alone. Rarely does this work that nicely, but thats the idea.

Instead go to the Linear Matrix menu. Turn the User Matrix on and reduce the individual components equally to reduce the saturation to your liking.
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#5 Peter J DeCrescenzo

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 01:13 AM

... go to the Linear Matrix menu. Turn the User Matrix on and reduce the individual components equally to reduce the saturation to your liking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Simon. I'll give it a go and see how it looks.

All the best,

- Peter
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#6 Simon Wyndham

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 05:19 AM

Peter, I should mention that you only need to adjust the R-G and B-G components. This is because they are all interactive and can cancel one another out and perform all kinds of weird stuff.

New information fresh off the press!
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#7 Peter J DeCrescenzo

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 09:29 PM

Peter, I should mention that you only need to adjust the R-G and B-G components. This is because they are all interactive and can cancel one another out and perform all kinds of weird stuff ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Simon. When I set the R-G & B-G both to settings like -10 or -20, it seem to slightly reduce the overall saturation without messing up the color balance -- which is part of what I need to match the DSR-450WS to my DSR-250 (and similar cams like PD-150 & 170).

I haven't tried every possible combination, but I found that if I set _all_ of the matrix settings to "-55" it yields an apparently very monochrome B&W image. When viewed on a vectorscope, the waveform is a tight cluster of dots at the center of the VS display.

EDIT: I should add that on this camera these settings can have a value from -99 to 99, with 0 being the default. I don't know if -55 is an arbitrary value which happens to provide a desired result. Interestingly -50 doesn't yield a monochrome image; instead the chart displays very pale colors.

Here are the settings for my DSR-450WS which yield a monochrome result:

=================
PAINT menu
Page 11 MTX LINEAR

Matrix: ON
Matrix (User): ON
Matrix (Preset): OFF
Matrix R-G: -55
Matrix R-B: -55
Matrix G-R: -55
Matrix G-B: -55
Matrix B-R: -55
Matrix B-G: -55
=================

Here's a "before" image (camera default factory settings; matrix values at 0 zero):
dsr450ws_default.JPG

And the same scene using the "-55" settings above:
dsr450ws_mono.JPG

All the best,

- Peter
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#8 Simon Wyndham

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 02:39 AM

Interesting. Although I would be careful when adjusting all the settings to get colour saturation. One of Sony's techs told me that they are all highly interactive with one another.
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#9 INNTHS

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 09:50 AM

Peter, I should mention that you only need to adjust the R-G and B-G components. This is because they are all interactive and can cancel one another out and perform all kinds of weird stuff ...








u mean we have to leave the other settings at zero???? i mean
Matrix G-R: 0
Matrix G-B: 0
Matrix B-R: 0

like this????
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#10 Jeff Regan

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Posted 28 April 2006 - 09:09 PM

Peter,

Why not just turn off Matrix? This will desaturate the entire image, dependent on Sony's default
matrix settings. I have found this to be the fastest, easiest way to help match cameras of different
models or FIT vs. IT CCDs. It won't be as precise as going into individual matrix adjustments, but
it's where I'd start.

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com
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