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16mm/S16mm/DV/24P(HD) ?


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#1 xtraview

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 10:49 AM

hi,

I'm planning to shoot a short film (10-12 min) and I not sure which format I should choose.
I will be submitting to festivals and not intended for a film projection.

Basically I have to chose between --
16m -- great student package price but may cost more in processing and converting to DV for editing?
Super 16m -- should not choose since I don't plan to blow up to 35mm ?
DV -- ?
Low end 24P -- ?
24P (HD) - ideal choice -- Panasonic AJ-HDC27F VariCam for $850 a day
Sony F900 Cine Alta for $1000 a day

If I were to go with 24P is the extra $150 worth it for SONY?
What options do I have for editing if shot on 24P?
Over all pricewise does 24P(HD) cheaper than 16mm?

Thanks in advance for your help.

RJ
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#2 Greg Gross

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 12:05 PM

I suppose you're going to get all kinds of advice here on forum. Will you be
doing post production using school editing equipment,school resources, as I
see you are a student? This I presume would reduce costs for your production.
I can't tell you which format to shoot in. If it was me I'd be shooting in 16mm.
I do know that in N.Y.C. you can rent some Arri packages for less than $1000.00
per day,16mm. I cannot tell from your post if your passion is digital cinematography
or film. If its digital I presume that you would want a film with the quality look of
"The Island" and not the look of "Open Water". Of course with film you're looking
at 16mm,Super 16mm Vs. 35mm. I know some people who will not even consider
just 16mm,I'm not one of them. I'm an independent filmmaker(not famous),what-
ever that means,of three years. I'll be shooting a 16mm film in october(romantic
comedy) with a borrowed Arri SB which is highly modified. I'm presently shopping
for an Arri SR package of some type. My post production,lab work will all be done
in N.Y.C. and I will be present for a lot of it. You know there are numerous produc-
tion houses in N.Y.C. and you could contact them for pricing and tech. questions.
Try to become friends with a tech. if you can,as you'll get boundless advice. May
be some student pricing offered. Of course you are going to have to decide on your
format. Actually I'm using my productions to build a reel for myself. I hope you will
be able to resolve your problem. Don't forget to check out the N.Y.C. production
houses and check on pricing for services and ask about student prices.

Greg Gross
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#3 Greg Gross

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 12:37 PM

Hello Again xtraview,

Here's an example for you, Cine Post, located in Atlanta,GA. Uses full aperture
Rank Turbo system. When transfer from film to video $.12/ft. . 1 to 2 day turn
around "PRIORITY", $185/hr . 1 to 2 week turn around $135/hr .

Cine Post
1745 Tullie Circle
Atlanta, GA 30329


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#4 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 12:38 PM

Of course, Kodak hopes you consider the advantages of Super-16:

http://www.kodak.com/go/16mm

http://www.kodak.com...d=0.1.4.3&lc=en

The image area advantage of Super-16 is very real, and that format should be used unless you can't afford the equipment, or need to make 16mm contact release prints with optical soundtrack.
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#5 Greg Gross

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 12:44 PM

If I could afford it I'd go with super 16mm. I'm a humble independent filmmaker
trying to build a reel. Can't afford cost of converting cameras at this time. I do
hope to go to super 16 at some point. Thanks for great advice from Kodak.


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#6 Greg Gross

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 12:58 PM

Xtraview,

At Cine Post its $.12/ft. for film processing. I typed info wrong. The rest applies
then to transfer from film to video(telecine). Sorry!


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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 01:09 PM

Budget and the look you want will determine the shooting format, plus what deals you can get. Plus what equipment you or your DP is skilled at using. Plus the end destination format...

Rarely is any format on the table as a possibility unless you have some amount of money to spend.

As for Super-16 versus regular 16mm, if you are renting the camera anyway, you might as well shoot Super-16, which gives you a widescreen negative for transfer to widescreen video. However, if this is for telecine transfer anyway and you have access to a free regular 16mm camera, you can get away with composing that for cropping to widescreen in the telecine transfer.

It's not really "24P vs. DV" -- 24P is one format you can record to DV (or DVCPRO50, or HDCAM, etc.) The real choice is 24P versus 60i (if you live in an NTSC country). And then the issue is whether this is using a consumer DV camera, a pro DV camera, a pro DVCPRO50 camera, or a pro HD camera, etc.
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#8 Lars.Erik

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 02:16 PM

Hello there, as stated, you'd probably would get lots of different advice.

The things I do when I look at a script, is to determine what kind of story it is, where it takes place and in what time period.

Example; if your shooting lets say something from the 19th century, I'd have a difficult time not shooting on film. Just because the digital look would look to "real".

If you have lots of shoots exterior, then it's not that tempting to shoot digital because of the limitations of the video tape regarding lighting ratio. It's possible to do this, but it involves strong HMI's.

And when it comes to digital, when shooting fiction, I believe that having a shallow DOF is very important. Unless there is a dramatic reason to have a lot of DOF. So this involves primes. And PS adaptor. (to use 35mm lenses)

But what one can do is to go away from HD cams, which is expensive, and rather go for SDX900. (Panasonic DVCPRO). This is a very good camera at a lot lesser price than HDCAM. This is of course if you don't have all the funding needed to have a HD package. This package will free some cash up to spend on lights or filters etc. If you need to get some.

And the most important aspect I think you should consider is this; you are a student, so therefore you will probably have a more difficult time to decide upon the takes you do, then lets say someone who has lots of experience. This is a good reason to shoot video. Tape costs nothing compared to film. My former "teacher", one of Norway's best focus pullers, tend to choose HD with his DP when shooting "dialogue" based films with inexperienced actors if possible. So that they just can keep shooting until the dialogue is good.

If you are thinking of making a great cinematography film, you might want to consider digital compared to film. Yes, film will likely make the image quality look better. But you'll be pressed about the number of rolls you have. That means less takes for difficult shots, (if you have any), on digital, again, you can just shoot until you've got it. In your position, I think it's more important to think about how the film is shoot (form?), rather than absolutely have to shoot on film.

If you do go for video, I'd advise you to get a monitor, at least 14".

Edited by Lars.Erik, 23 August 2005 - 02:24 PM.

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#9 Nate Downes

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 02:27 PM

*cough* Super8 *cough*
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#10 Paul Bruening

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 08:55 PM

Hello,

If you're just getting your chops, tape may be your best choice. When you get into the middle of your production and the cast and crew quit showing up or show up hung-over and useless, you'll thank your lucky stars you didn't commit to film yet. There are a mountain of things to learn by experience about production. When you wade through them you'll realize that the cam and medium were the smallest of your headaches. I did my last three features on an XL1s and it was totally adequate for the job. Only now am I jumping up to film.

Frankly, at our level, the chances of creating anything marketable is a long shot. What you want to do is produce for the film festival racket. You might get noticed by someone with backing of some kind. What they want to know is: 1. Can you finish the project. 2. Can you tell a story. 3. Can you manage your cast and crew to tell that story effectively. They'll understand that you didn't have a bankroll. They just want to know you have the stuff of movies within you.

Just a thought.
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#11 Greg Gross

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 12:22 AM

xtraview is talking about a 10 to 12 minute film here so maybe he could
afford telecine, rent super 16 camera shoot on film and transfer to video
for the film festival. I wanted him to be aware of the costs of telecine. I
knew that Cine Post had a link here on the forum page. I'm just shooting
my first production on film and I have free access to my mentor's camera.
If I was renting camera I would go for super 16. One thing I like about the
forum is that the different posts have a tendency to stimulate your thinking.
There is much to be learned here. I believe the cost of a digital (digital cine-
matography camera,Genesis,Dalsa,Arri) camera(rental) would be too pro-
hibitive. Anyway one attractive feature of digital cinematograhpy or HD is
that you can keep the camera rolling, your actors stay fresh for the take.
I hope some day the price will be attractive for the independent filmmaker.
I suppose my fantasy is that some day the independent on a tight budget
will be able to shoot with the Genesis. Sweet Jesus, I believe I am a Pana-
vision man,person,filmmaker! Now I know I'm going to catch hell on the
forum! Could it be Panavision thats scrolled across my T-shirt? I do like the
look of that Arri D-20 though. Xtraview I wish you luck with your production,
I'm sure you'll make a wise choice,it will be a good learning experience for
you.

Greg Gross
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#12 Rik Andino

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 02:54 AM

hi,

I'm planning to shoot a short film (10-12 min)
and I not sure which format I should choose.
I will be submitting to festivals and not intended for a film projection.

Basically I have to chose between --
16m -- great student package price but may cost more in processing and converting to DV for editing?
Super 16m -- should not choose since I don't plan to blow up to 35mm ?
DV -- ?
Low end 24P -- ?
24P (HD) - ideal choice -- Panasonic AJ-HDC27F VariCam for $850 a day
                                                  Sony F900 Cine Alta for $1000 a day

If I were to go with 24P is the extra $150 worth it for SONY?
What options do I have for editing if shot on 24P?
Over all pricewise does 24P(HD) cheaper than 16mm?

Thanks in advance for your help.

RJ

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Well the first two questions you gotta ask yourself is...

1) How good is this project--is it worth the 10K I'm plunking down?

2) And before that--you should ask how much do I have to plunk down...?

First of all if you don't have over 5grand for this project...
You'll most likely be working with DV...

Second you should figure out who your crew is...
I'm sure you'll need a serious DP if you're shooting HD...maybe even S16...
And that might add to the budget constraints...

Also you should be aware of the time you have to make this project
And who will be working with you...if you have a slow DP
Or a G&E crew of one or Actors who can't nail it in one take etc...
Or an inexperience sound guy...etc...

Finally you should strongly consider what is at your disposal
And take advantage of that...and try to live within your means...
It's very important for young filmmakers to learn how to make films
With little or no resources cause it puts your skills to test...
And you can see what can be accomplish with just inventiveness and vision.

& Unless you're positively sure (and I mean betting your grandmama's house sure)
That this film is destine to go places and get you recognized at festivals
Should you go out and break the bank and go broke and in debt making this short.


As a student I would recommend to shoot MiniDV or 16mm (maybe S16)
And keep things simple enough that you can make it happen...

If you have a budget of 20grand and an experienced crew
Than maybe you can make it more complicated...
And sure you'll have a great film but I don't know if you'll learn much from it.


Good Luck
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#13 xtraview

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 11:56 AM

I would like to thank everyone for their advice.

A few important points were made for a student film makers:

- Shoot in a format that you can afford --- choose DV instead 16mm since the project should be about learning
- Objective is to finish the project because that would be one of the good selling point for your film career or making of a good director
- Keep things simple -- tell the story and do not concentrate on flashy effects

I'm thinking of using DVX100A or XL-2 .. I know it's a personal choice between these two cameras but please feel free to share your
personal experience . I'm thinking of shooting a few scenes in black and white ..should I shoot them in camera or do this in post-production
(Final cut/Adobe)?

Also, does AJ-SDX900 would be a better choice? (almost double the rental price compared to DVX) Does it offer anything different.



by the way.. this website has a lot of information about 24p format -- www.adamwilt.com/24p


Thanks,

RJ
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#14 Greg Gross

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 12:15 PM

Hello xtraview,
Just wanted to say hello and wish you best of luck with your production. The
DVX-100A is a nice camera! Say, how did you like those telecine prices? I
really do not have any need to transfer film to video, I thought you would
like to see what the process would cost. I'm not an expert and I hope I will
always be a student cinematographer(always learning). Remember I told you
that you would get a lot of advice. How about it? Isn't this forum great?

Greg Gross
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#15 Lars.Erik

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 02:47 PM

I would like to thank everyone for their advice.

A few important points were made for a student film makers:

- Shoot in a format that you can afford --- choose DV instead 16mm since the project should be about learning
- Objective is to finish the project because that would be one of the good selling point for your film career or making of a good director
- Keep things simple -- tell the story and do not concentrate on flashy effects

I'm thinking of using DVX100A or XL-2 .. I know it's a personal choice between these two cameras but  please feel free to share your
personal experience . I'm thinking of shooting a few scenes in black and white ..should I shoot them in camera or do this in post-production
(Final cut/Adobe)?

Also, does AJ-SDX900 would be a better choice? (almost double the rental price compared to DVX) Does it offer anything different.
by the way.. this website has a lot of information about 24p format  -- www.adamwilt.com/24p
Thanks,

RJ

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Well, it's all really about the look you're after. The DVX100a is a good camera, but it works differently from the SDX900.

I'd go for the SDX any day over the DVX. It has higher resolution and a detachable lens etc.

Simplest way:

DVX100a: good for those films who require small cameras. (tiny apartments, it will get you shots the SDX can't because of it's size.) It's not very good for handheld shots, unless you're looking for that kind of feel. It won't give you a very good shallow DOF. And trying to figure out the focus is also quite hell. But there is a chart made that calculates the numberic readings on the focus in inches. It's on the page you refered to above.

SDX900: it will give you a lot more DOF, it's better for shooting b&w, you can choose different lenses, it gives you more control in form of the more advanced in-camera menu than the dvx. The SDX will look better colour wise. This camera will double your rental cost though, compared to the dvx.

My advice, go for the SDX. It's a great camera. In short, SDX is a hell of a better cam than the DVX...
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#16 Greg Gross

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 12:16 PM

Hello xtraview,

Just a suggestion here for you. Will the film festival you are attending allow you to
project a 16mm film? You could rent Super 16mm camera package and shoot your
production,show your film. I believe the one quote we had here was for processing
at $.12/ft.. I saw your post earlier in the month here on forum requesting a DP to
shoot your production. I was just wondering if you really wanted to(had a passion)
shoot on film. Of course Super 16 would be the best way to go. I'll look up some
Super 16mm rental packages in N.Y.C. and post on forum late tonight. I'm due for
duty at my hospital in two hours. If nothing else it will be informative to you how
rental houses operate,fees and insurances involved.

Greg Gross
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#17 Greg Gross

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 12:23 AM

xtraview,

Duall Camera, 231 west 29th St.,Suite 210,N.Y.C.
Tele. 212-643-1042,Fax 212-643-9335
duall 629@aol.com

1. Arri SR-3 Advanced- $350.00/Day
24,25,29.97,30/5-75fps,on-off handgrip,adjustable shutter 45-180 degrees.
16 SR-3 400' Timecode magazine- $50/day
2. Aaton XTR
2-400' magazines,on-off handgrip,3-54 fps
2-on board batteries w/charger
$225.00/Day
3. Super16 Lenses:
Zeiss 25mm,T1.3,15"- $60/Day
Zeiss 35mm,T1.4,1' 2"- $40/Day
Zeiss 50mm,T1.3,2' 4"- $60/Day
Zeiss 85mm,T1.4,3'- $60/Day
4. Zoom Lenses (Super 16)
Zeiss 12-120mm,T2.4, 5'- $160/Day
Zeiss 11-110mm,T2.2 5"- $160/Day
5. Arri Mark I Geared Head (Mitchell Base)- $150/Day
6. Tripod/Heads- $30 to $75/Day
7. Legs- $30 to $35/Day
Thought you might be interested in rental fees at Duall Camera. Sydney Pollock
once said(something like)- "I know if I'm having fun making a film, it probably
won't be a good film. Because making a good film is a lot of hard work and not
much fun." Thats not exactly what he said but close. He's my favorite director.
Well I think it costs a lot of money to make a film and a lot of hard work. Just
imagine going to pick up equipment above and we haven't talked about a gaffer
or renting lighting equipment yet. What do you think xtraview?

Greg Gross
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#18 Greg Gross

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 01:12 AM

Super 16mm Film Prices At Film Emporium
Tele. 212-683-2433 or 800-371-2555

Vision2 500T Color Negative Film,7218
Factory 100' Daylight Spool- $0.33/ft.
Factory 400'- $0.33/ft
Short Ends- $0.19/ft
Recan 400'- $0.25/ft
Recan 200' A-minima- $0.24/ft

Vision 250D Color Negative Film,7205
Factory 100'- $0.33/ft
Factory 400'- $0.33/ft
Recan 400'- $0.25/ft.
Short Ends- $0.19/ft.
Recan 200' A-minima- $0.24/ft

Vision 200T Color Negative Film,7274
Factory 100' Daylight Spool- $0.29/ft
Factory 400' 200T- $0.30/ft
Recan 400' 200T- $0.24/ft.
Short Ends 200T- $0.18/ft.

xtraview, here's some film prices I found at Film Emporium.

Greg Gross
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