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#1 Keith Mottram

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 11:06 AM

Could anyone suggest some places to rent a Viper from in UK. Preferrably near Manchester. I'd love to talk to a few different companies. I think Motion FX suplied us with one for Mirrormask, trying to find out currently. Any suggestions would be really apreciated, direct to disk is necessary. Also is there a rental house for high-speed HD like the Speedcam in the UK?

Thanks alot,

Keith
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#2 coolbreeze

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Posted 29 August 2005 - 11:48 AM

Arri rent both the Viper and the high speed Tornedo system.
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#3 Keith Mottram

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 11:02 AM

Arri rent both the Viper and the high speed Tornedo system.

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Arri have stopped renting the Viper in the UK. Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance,

Keith
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#4 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 12:51 PM

Arri have stopped renting the Viper in the UK.
Keith

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Why did they stop renting it?
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#5 coolbreeze

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 01:21 PM

Really? I thought they had two left, but as far as i know they havent rented them out much. The guy to talk to in there is Russell Allen. Alternatively you could try Optex - i think they tried to buy a couple of vipers a few years back. Sorry i cant be of more help.
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#6 Keith Mottram

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 06:49 AM

Why did they stop renting it?

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Because everyone prefers using film John!!!! Seriously, I think they only really bought them as a stop gap till they had developed there own system (and probably took them apart for R and D). They have kept the S2 recorders though. I dont know where the cameras went, but I think they may have sold them on to Motion FX, who Arri think are the only people in the UK to have the Viper. I am now hoping the D20 will be production ready for this project, which I'll shoot straight to S2. If anyone does know any other places with the Viper I would still like to know. I'm beginning to get the impression that the Viper is on it's way out - unless Thompson can upgrade it to match Arri and Panavision, this would be a shame as I rather liked it last time I used it.

Keith
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#7 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 15 September 2005 - 07:43 PM

To say that the Viper is "On its way out" is to say that Sony cinealta and Varicam are on the way out. Cameras like the D20 and Geneses, are not even out yet... And the one 4k digital camera that is, the Dalsa deal, has not caught on yet. New Cameras like the D20, Genesis and the Dalsa are nice, but there is currently very little post options for them, so even though they have 6mp, sometimes, 12mp sensors, most still only output 1080 HD resolution, due to the limitations of the recording format. At this moment, the only reason I see to use a camera like the D20 is for narative filmmaking, where Depth of Field is of concern. If your doing VFX work, the cameras are bulky and have little advantage over the Viper, Cinealta, and Varicam....

the Viper is only about, what, 2 years old now? maybe not even that. Its just at the point where it will start to catch on. I dont think, however, that it will catch on much in the UK as compared to the US, where the real market for them are.

Edited by Landon D. Parks, 15 September 2005 - 07:45 PM.

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#8 Keith Mottram

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 09:09 AM

To say that the Viper is "On its way out" is to say that Sony cinealta and Varicam are on the way out. Cameras like the D20 and Geneses, are not even out yet... And the one 4k digital camera that is, the Dalsa deal, has not caught on yet. New Cameras like the D20, Genesis and the Dalsa are nice, but there is currently very little post options for them, so even though they have 6mp, sometimes, 12mp sensors, most still only output 1080 HD resolution, due to the limitations of the recording format. At this moment, the only reason I see to use a camera like the D20 is for narative filmmaking, where Depth of Field is of concern. If your doing VFX work, the cameras are bulky and have little advantage over the Viper, Cinealta, and Varicam....

the Viper is only about, what, 2 years old now? maybe not even that. Its just at the point where it will start to catch on. I dont think, however, that it will catch on much in the UK as compared to the US, where the real market for them are.

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Landon (C.E.O), please refrain from posting opinions based solely on quoting websites, that you frequently misread, or other chinese whisper sources. I am fully aware of the post process (having been involved in the industry as long as you've been alive) I have also used the viper, cinealta and varicam. I have edited footage from the D20 and in case your interested have a full understanding of depth of field (having actually shot with cameras before). please spend more time listening and less time advising.

keith

p.s i'm especially bemused as to why the real market for the viper is in the u.s.? is it do with the climate or perhaps to do with america's love of french produce?
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#9 Stephen Williams

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 10:42 AM

To say that the Viper is "On its way out" is to say that Sony cinealta and Varicam are on the way out. Cameras like the D20 and Geneses, are not even out yet... And the one 4k digital camera that is, the Dalsa deal, has not caught on yet. New Cameras like the D20, Genesis and the Dalsa are nice, but there is currently very little post options for them, so even though they have 6mp, sometimes, 12mp sensors, most still only output 1080 HD resolution, due to the limitations of the recording format. At this moment, the only reason I see to use a camera like the D20 is for narative filmmaking, where Depth of Field is of concern. If your doing VFX work, the cameras are bulky and have little advantage over the Viper, Cinealta, and Varicam....

the Viper is only about, what, 2 years old now? maybe not even that. Its just at the point where it will start to catch on. I dont think, however, that it will catch on much in the UK as compared to the US, where the real market for them are.

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Hi,

IMHO it's a waste of time to use high end cameras if you record to HD color space. The Viper has already been used in Film Stream for an entire feature, Motion FX did the post. There is no workflow issue in UK. Motion FX have 3 Vipers at the moment!

Stephen
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#10 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 03:55 PM

I know that the D20, and other cameras with single 35mm sized censors have the same DOF as a 35mm camera (Actual DOF depends on lenses, among other things), than a Viper or Cinealta. However, if your shooting a VFX feature, Cinealta and Viper are fine, because you don?t need the shallow DOF, in fact, you want as much DOF as possible to be sure everything is in focus, considering that 85-95% of each frame will be cut out in post, I see no need for the added resolution of the D20.

Plus, 3 CCD cameras (IMO anyway) probly work better on VFX features than single chip cameras, because for every single pixel, you get a Red, Blue and Green Channel. In the single chip cameras, you will either have a Bayer pattern or something like it, meaning the pixel colors are laid out like a checkerboard. the sensors may be bigger, and they may have more pixels (To this date, most cameras still only output 1080 HD) but by the way the sensors are laid out in a single chip camera, Compositing will be more difficult, as the cameras has to "Interpret" the colors of the CCD to get an actual color in a scene. Meaning that since the sensor is laid out in a R, G,B, R,G,B Pattern, complicated software must be used in the camera or post (Just like in a Digital Still Camera) to sort out the information between each R,G,B,R,G,B pixel and get an actual picture. Where-as a 3 CCD chip captures (Respectively, not literally) R,G,B for every pixel on the CCD. Later the R CCD, G CCD and B CCD (Each with 2.2Million Pixels of each color) is just "Laid on Top" of each other the produce the picture.

IMHO this has to produce a better color result than the single CCD chip.

This is just opinion, mixed with a lot of facts about the way CCDs and cameras work. Trust me, I deal with digital still cameras a lot, I know how there CCD works in Bayer pattern and other methods.

This has nothing to do with the industry of film, but with the industry of CCD and CMOS chips. Unless someone in here is an expert in that industry (and not just the film industry, thinking they know about the CCD industry) then listen to someone who knows a little bit about it.

I?m no expert, and I don?t claim to be. But I do know a thing or two about it.

Edited by Landon D. Parks, 19 September 2005 - 04:00 PM.

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#11 Keith Mottram

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 03:59 PM

I know that the D20, and other cameras with single 35mm sized censors have the same DOF as a 35mm camera (Actual DOF depends on lenses, among other things), than a Viper or Cinealta.  Trust me, I deal with digital still cameras a lot, I know how there CCD works in Bayer patern and other methods.

This has nothing to do with the industry of film, but with the industry of CCD and CMOS chips. Unless someone in here is an expert in that industry (and not just the film industry, thinking they know about the CCD industry) then listen to someone who knows a little bit about it.

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BANG BANG BANG (that's the sound of me hitting my head against the wall)
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#12 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 04:04 PM

Or, and PS: The feature "Red Riding Hood" is being shoot completly with the viper to 4:4:4 Dis recorders, and from what I'v seen of the previews, and of other film films shot with the HD format, I see no need for the D20 and such cameras until we can take full advantage of what they offer, which for the most part, is more resolution.

Hell, right now the best we can get is the 4k signal (more like 3k) of the Dalsa camera, and its not very practical, considering the recording unit is the size of a fridge. and the unit you have to download the footage to is about the size of 3 fridges that no one unless your george lucas is gonna be able to afford.

So whats the alternative recording method for most? HDCAM or 4:4:4 HD disk recorders.... What are you gaining with the big Dalsa and d20? Nothing but less DOF, which unless your making a narrative movie, there is little use for.
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#13 Stephen Williams

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Posted 20 September 2005 - 02:59 AM

So whats the alternative recording method for most? HDCAM or 4:4:4 HD disk recorders.... What are you gaining with the big Dalsa and d20? Nothing but less DOF, which unless your making a narrative movie, there is little use for.

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Hi,

Quality of image!

Pictures from the Dalsa and D20 do look quite like film. Its far more than just DOF. IMHO any camera recording in HDCAM is just a HD Video camera. The pictures look like video too.

The Viper, with Digiprimes recording in filmstream, have an almost film look.

Stephen
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#14 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 20 September 2005 - 04:49 AM

Recording in Film-stream to what though? HD 4:4:4 recorders or HDCAM SR decks? My point again, to just say "Recording in Filmstream" is not enough. the camera can output in film-stream, but to my knowlege it is still recorded mostly on HDD arrays, which are still 1080 HD, only uncompressed inseatd of the compression you get with tape decks.

PS) How many films have you seen projected on the big screen that have been shot with the viper in filmstream mode? Im interested to know....
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#15 Stephen Williams

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Posted 20 September 2005 - 05:07 AM

Recording in Film-stream to what though? HD 4:4:4 recorders or HDCAM SR decks? My point again, to just say "Recording in Filmstream" is not enough. the camera can output in film-stream, but to my knowlege it is still recorded mostly on HDD arrays, which are still 1080 HD, only uncompressed inseatd of the compression you get with tape decks.

PS) How many films have you seen projected on the big screen that have been shot with the viper in filmstream mode? Im interested to know....

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Hi,

Log output not linear in film streem, Capturing to S.two Digital Film Recorders. Big advantage!

Only 1 Film has been made to date!
The worlds first uncompressed 4:4:4 movie, 'Silence Becomes You'

Stephen
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#16 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 20 September 2005 - 02:16 PM

Only 1 Film has been made to date!

My point exactly, so how can you state that:

The Viper, with Digiprimes recording in filmstream, have an almost film look.

?
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#17 Mike Brennan

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Posted 25 September 2005 - 05:51 AM

Hi,

Log output not linear in film streem, Capturing to S.two Digital Film Recorders. Big advantage!

Only 1 Film has been made to date!
The worlds first uncompressed 4:4:4 movie, 'Silence Becomes You'

Stephen

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Hi Steve,
I understand the pros and cons of uncompressed recording using STwo.
What are the advantages of film stream and log output?
Please consider the following in your response:)

1/Consider that the 12bit AD is employed in both filmstream and RGB modes.

2/Since there is little scope for details to be retained in highlights from CCDs the suggestion that log processing (allowing more bits to be used to record shadows) creates a more filimic look is puzzling when we all seem to say the defining part of film look is the roll off of detail in the highlights.

3/ Comparing Viper log to Viper RGB is a moot point, compare it to RGB output of other cameras is fairer as I believe Viper has had little development knowledge of RGB processing and AD mapping since its introduction.

4/ There is no "data" in a ccd camera just a string of volts from the ccd, therefore the statement "raw data in filmstream mode" is unhelpfull. The volts are processed in filmstream mode.

5/ "Underexposing" 2 stops and lifting the underexposed parts in post is what many do when using the Viper, this is far different from saying the camera has 2 stops more dynamic range....


Mike Brennan
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#18 Stephen Williams

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Posted 25 September 2005 - 06:08 AM

Hi Steve,
I understand the pros and cons of uncompressed recording using STwo.
What are the advantages of film stream and log output?
Please consider the following in your response:)

1/Consider that the 12bit AD is employed in both filmstream and RGB modes.

2/Since there is little scope for details to be retained in highlights from CCDs the suggestion that log processing (allowing more bits to be used to record shadows) creates a more filimic look is puzzling when we all seem to say the defining part of film look is the roll off of detail in the highlights.

3/ Comparing Viper log to Viper RGB is a moot point, compare it to RGB output of other cameras is fairer as I believe Viper has had little development knowledge of RGB processing and AD mapping since its introduction.

4/ There is no "data" in a ccd camera just a string of volts from the ccd, therefore the statement "raw data in filmstream mode" is unhelpfull. The volts are processed in filmstream mode.

5/ "Underexposing" 2 stops and lifting the underexposed parts in post is what many do when using the Viper, this is far different from saying the camera has 2 stops more dynamic range....
Mike Brennan

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Hi,

Are you Mike Brennan from http://www.hd24.com

Steve Shaw who was involved in 'Silence Becomes You' has a very informative website.

Comparisons are shown LIN V LOG

http://www.digitalpraxis.net

Stephen
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#19 Mike Brennan

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Posted 25 September 2005 - 06:12 AM

Landon,
Some corrections for the benifit to the readers of your posts.

The Genesis does not use Bayer pattern!!! It has rgb rgb rgb arrangement.


Supersampling from higher res to 1920x1080 reduces jaggies so there is benifit of higher res cameras even though we can't record all of the pixels.

SRW 1 records 1920x1080 10bit 444 2:1 compression, Arri Media have 10 units.

There are no serious workflow issues with SR format (in the common frame rates, I'm sure 1080 50p will create some!)

3chip blocks are not perfect and most 2/3 inch wide angle lenses have issues with alignment resulting in colour fringing in focal lenghts below 10mm.

It is disappointing that you appear to be not learning this stuff, with time on your side, I had hopes that you might be able to tell us a (factual) thing or two in the years to come!


Mike Brennan
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#20 Stephen Williams

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Posted 25 September 2005 - 06:30 AM

My point exactly, so how can you state that: ?

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Landon

With cutting edge technology there is always a FIRST time.

I have seen some scenes of the film with my own eyes, and have based my opinion on what I saw.

Stephen
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