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#1 Gerard Houghton

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Posted 29 August 2005 - 11:43 AM

I'm working on a long HD project and so far (150 hours) have been using Sony DVC Premium tape stock - which is what I've generally used for other DV projects.

Recently someone suggested that I should have a look at the new <<Sony DVM-63HD 63 Minutes Mini DV HD Video Cassette>> which at $13.99 is about three times what I'm paying for the ordinary mini-DV tapes and will make a big change in the budget if I decide to go that route.

Does anyone have any idea as to what the advantages of this tape are supposed to be - what one's paying out for?

I shall need one set of archival tapes - the project is to create a dance archive - but much of the work with the several hundred hours of footage will be done from digital copies on hard drives.

Anyone have any experience - opinions - on these new super(?) tapes.

thanx
gessie
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#2 anamexis

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 11:49 AM

I'm assuming you're working with HDV. The thing about HDV is that it is much more compressed than DV, so is more data in the same space, so to speak, and also, it is a keyframe-based compression scheme, at every 15 frames. What this means is if there is a glitch recording to the tape (dirty heads, dust, whatever), you will lose a half second of footage, which is much, much more noticeable than the 1 or 2 frames you would lose on DV.
The HDV tapes, as I understand it, are just higher quality, both the emulsion and the magnetic data layer, in order to avoid these costly dropouts. However, if you haven't been having any problems with the MiniDV tapes you're using, I don't see a reason to switch.
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#3 tylerhawes

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 01:41 PM

Technical point: HDV is not actually putting any more data on the tape than DV, it's simply compressing HD so much that it can fit in the same bitrate as DV already uses. So it's not more dense on the tape.

Nevertheless, it's true that an HDV dropout could potentially be much more pereceptible than a DV dropout.

The GOP size (15 frames was mentioned) can actually vary depending on the camera you're using.
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#4 Richard Boddington

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 06:54 PM

I'm assuming this is a joke posting?

I mean people bemoaning the "high" cost of DV tape?

Tim Tyler must have put one of you guys up to this for a laugh :D

R,
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#5 Luke Prendergast

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 07:12 PM

's what I thought too :D
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#6 Alvin Pingol

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 12:22 AM

>>HDV is not actually putting any more data on the tape than DV, it's simply
>>compressing HD so much that it can fit in the same bitrate as DV already uses

Less, actually! (19Mbit/sec vs 25)
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#7 anamexis

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 12:44 AM

>>HDV is not actually putting any more data on the tape than DV, it's simply
>>compressing HD so much that it can fit in the same bitrate as DV already uses

Less, actually! (19Mbit/sec vs 25)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The 720p formats use about 19Mbit/sec, true, but 1080i, which at least today is the more common of the two, uses 25 Mbit/sec.
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#8 Alvin Pingol

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 12:54 AM

Thanks, I was unaware of this.
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#9 Gerard Houghton

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 06:21 PM

I'm assuming this is a joke posting?

I mean people bemoaning the "high" cost of DV tape?

Tim Tyler must have put one of you guys up to this for a laugh  :D

R,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Dear Richard

Actually Not! No one put me up to asking the question!

I expect to be shooting about 1000 hours of footage - all together. The difference between 1000 hours at $2.99 or $4.99 and 1000 hours at $13.99 meqans that you ask yourself just what it is that you're paying for that is worth that extra expense.

Maybe you don't have to ask basic questions like that - I presumed that most people did and that those who didn't know the answer would also be interested in it.

regards
gessie
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#10 Richard Boddington

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 07:05 PM

1000 hours of footage? Who are you Stanley Kubrick?

R,
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#11 Tim Tyler

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 07:07 PM

Tim Tyler must have put one of you guys up to this for a laugh 


Nope - It wasn't me.
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#12 Gerard Houghton

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 04:12 PM

I'm assuming you're working with HDV. The thing about HDV is that it is much more compressed than DV, so is more data in the same space, so to speak, and also, it is a keyframe-based compression scheme, at every 15 frames. What this means is if there is a glitch recording to the tape (dirty heads, dust, whatever), you will lose a half second of footage, which is much, much more noticeable than the 1 or 2 frames you would lose on DV.
The HDV tapes, as I understand it, are just higher quality, both the emulsion and the magnetic data layer, in order to avoid these costly dropouts. However, if you haven't been having any problems with the MiniDV tapes you're using, I don't see a reason to switch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Micah,

Thanks for answering my question. Yes, it's an HDV project: were using a couple of FX1s and four Z1s to gather the material - so total tape cost becomes a factor. So far there've been no mechanical problems with gummed heads or anything of that sort - and nothing's been said that convinces me of any quality differential that'd make switching to these new tapes that desirable - though I'll keep my ears open for developments on that front.

cheers
gessie
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#13 Charlie Seper

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 05:25 PM

Hey Gessie,

Is that Sony DVM-63HDtape you used the same one they refer to in their media material as, "DigitalMaster"? If so, then I'm wondering about that too. I have a brochure for the Z1U I got from a magazine a couple of months back that mentions this tape and claims:

"...has a dual layer of magnetic material. The result? Higher RF output, lower noise, 95% fewer errors and 60% fewer dropouts compared to DV tape!"

It may just be hype to sell more expensive tape...who knows. But anyhow, I've read about a lot of people experiencing dropouts with the new JVC HD100 HDV unit, and yet I almost never hear any complaints about dropouts from people using any of the Sony HDV cams. I'm curious at this point as to whether or not this might be attributed to a lot of the Sony owners using this DigitalMaster tape. I mean, if it really does produce 60% fewer dropouts then that's something HDV users would probably jump on. Anyhow, I imagine a lot of people who own Sony HDV cams are more prone to use this new Sony tape than are the people using the JVC cam. And I'm wondering if that's why the Sony HDV users are experiencing less dropouts. Its curious anyway.
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#14 Gerard Houghton

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 06:59 PM

Hey Gessie,

Is that Sony DVM-63HDtape you used the same one they refer to in their media material as, "DigitalMaster"? If so, then I'm wondering about that too. I have a brochure for the Z1U I got from a magazine a couple of months back that mentions this tape and claims:

"...has a dual layer of magnetic material. The result? Higher RF output, lower noise, 95% fewer errors and 60% fewer dropouts compared to DV tape!"

It may just be hype to sell more expensive tape...who knows. But anyhow, I've read about a lot of people experiencing dropouts with the new JVC HD100 HDV unit, and yet I almost never hear any complaints about dropouts from people using any of the Sony HDV cams. I'm curious at this point as to whether or not this might be attributed to a lot of the Sony owners using this DigitalMaster tape. I mean, if it really does produce 60% fewer dropouts then that's something HDV users would probably jump on. Anyhow, I imagine a lot of people who own Sony HDV cams are more prone to use this new Sony tape than are the people using the JVC cam. And I'm wondering if that's why the Sony HDV users are experiencing less dropouts. Its curious anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Charlie
With all the tapes nuanced and numbered- I'm not sure if it's the exact same Digital Master tape you're mentioning. You can find images and info on the B&H page:

http://www.bhphotovi...egoryNavigation

The features burble runs:
"Sony's DVM-63HD HD DVC tape offers the highest quality recording media for the consumer or prosumer making the step-up to an HD camcorder. It is the recommended media for HDV camcorders. Independent film makers, advertising agencies, and other videographers will appreciate the improved image quality, and the professional 63 minute tape duration. The DVM-63HD features 90% fewer errors and 50% fewer dropouts compared to DV Reference tape.
Key Features
Designed for 1080i or 720p HDV recording and playback.
3dB higher carrier-to-noise ratio vs. Premium DVC tape "

which comes close to the tapes you're talking about - but I still want to know more about this stuff from someone who's used it - or someone who can tell me just why it might be worth triple it's weight in silver dollars.

gessie
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#15 DaveGardner

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Posted 10 September 2005 - 04:35 PM

Add to the tape stock confusion apparently there is an even newer tape stock Sony is recommending for use in their HDV pro camera (according to a tape vendor), and that is the SO-PHDVM63DM which costs anywhere from about $17 to $21 apiece. Wonder if that's worth the price. I'm just getting the camera, and unsure of which stock to try. I'm also going to be shooting some SD material with it, and like using the Sony DVM60EX stock (about $7.30). Wondering whether I would regret mixing this stock with one or the other of these more expensive stocks. Has anyone heard about this more expensive stock?
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#16 Ted Hinkle

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 03:17 PM

With Sony's mini DV HDV tapes what's the difference between the HDM-63VG and the DVM-63HD other than that HDM-63VG tapes cost cheaper???
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