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How do you telecine Vision2 negative film?


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#1 damo cross

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 03:55 AM

Can anyone advise me onI am wanting to use Kodak Vision 2 film for a shot film project to be filmed in a low light situation, I have very little budget so want to do as much as I can myself. I am using Sony Vegas.

Can anyone advise me on the best way to transfer Kodak Vision 2 into a digital format? I would really like to know the presses.
Being a neg film I know it needs to be reversed to positive, can this just be done in post in the editing suite?

Thanks for your help!
Damo.
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#2 santo

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 08:47 AM

First off, if you're concerned about reversing the image from negative to positive, you're in a lot of trouble. I say this because this is done during the transfer process at a professional transfer place -- the person editing at home doesn't have to worry about this aspect.

Forget about doing a "do-it-yourself" transfer of your negative footage or using some home movie transfer machine using a converted projector. All you're going to get are a bunch of white blobs all over your film (black specs of dust reversed so that they are white specs) and really poor colour because the correction tools are just not there.

Ask yourself this: how much money are you paying on film and development? If you're shooting V2 negative, you are making a substantial investment just in the film so that you can get results about 5 light years ahead of old reversal film technology from the 1930's or 1960's. But all that money won't transfer to the screen where people will see it, unless you pay a little more and get a real transfer at a post place using a Rank or a Spirit or Shadow type of transfer machine. V2 stocks are designed for such a transfer process.

Bite the bullet, open up your wallet, and look up places like "flying spot" and "cinepost" and "pro8" and a bunch of other places (look at the ads to the right of this board even) that offer a transfer on the net and spend some more money. Don't try and fool yourself like so many people into thinking you can get past this crucial step and save a few bucks. Again, all the hard work (or not if it's a pleasure shoot on vacation or of family) and money you've spent won't make it through to the final product without it.
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#3 Mike Crane

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 01:06 PM

Excellent advice from Santo. But, I would avoid Pro8mm like the plague (especially if you are a "new fish" in their store). They sell shoddy products and services at outrageous prices. Many bad reports have been written about them on the forums. And, I have personally had some bad experiences there as well.

If you are interested in someplace good in the LA area, I would recommend Spectra Film and Video. They have done great work for me on all my jobs. If you are on a low budget tell them how much you have to spend and they will usually be able to work with you in some form. www.spectrafilmandvideo.com

As Santo mentions, do not project or view the footage under any circumstances. The dirt will accumulate very fast (seen as white specks).

Though you must pay to professionally transfer the negative, the film is far more forgiving and easier to adjust during the transfer. You will find that results are far more consistent, saving you money on film and processing while making your clients happier.
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#4 Matt Wells

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 06:07 AM

I would second the previous two posts.

The Vision emulsions are amazing (the 500T 7218 has very low grain for such a fast stock, hence why Kodak must have felt justified in putting it into super8 cartridges)

However definitely be very careful indeed with your processed negative - it will get scratched and dirty very easily indeed - take special note if you are used to reversal, especially Kodachrome, which is bombproof by comparision as it is designed for projection.

The great thing about negative is that at the telecine stage you can make endless manipulation of colour gamma etc etc.

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#5 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 03:09 PM

For the best S-8 Xfer, use Flying Spot www.fsft.com. If your on a tight budget, Cinepost http://www.posthouse...ECINE_PAGE.html gives a good bang for the buck I hear.

Edited by Skratch, 03 September 2005 - 03:13 PM.

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#6 John Tuffen

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 11:48 AM

Hi,
I'm very new here (have been hanging around the filmshooting.com forums until now), and have a question about good places (read not too expensive!) for processing/transferring of Vision2 200T/500T.

I'm in the UK, and have looked at Todd-AO, but they do seem rather expensive...

Are cinepost a good/reliable option? They seem pretty reasonable from skimming their website; I'll drop them an email later if they have a good rep ;)

I just had some Tri-X footage developed by Andec, transferred by Uppsala BildTechnik, which was fine except the film was very underexposed (shooting too late in the day), so this is for the reshoot :rolleyes:

Any advice will be gratefully received

john..
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#7 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 02:18 PM

This is just an opinion of mine, but you may find that more transfer facilities will do a better job with black and white than with color.

So you may decide to have two facilities that you use, the lower cost one for your black and white film transfers, the higher cost one (assuming that their quality is better) for your color.

On the other hand, since black and white should probably transfer at somewhat quicker rate than color, the better color transfer facility may be faster with the black and white films as well, so I guess I just contradicted myself. :unsure:
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#8 Will Montgomery

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 08:01 PM

Are cinepost a good/reliable option? They seem pretty reasonable from skimming their website; I'll drop them an email later if they have a good rep ;)


The CinePost guys can be really good. Their standby rate of $135/hour is hard to beat. Keep in mind that they get pretty busy too. Here's a still from a transfer last year. It was Vision 200T. (not the Vision2 version)

If you need processing, they can arrange it, but they don't do it themselves. Bonolabs will process just about any type of stock and transfer it for you, but I think they are more expensive on transfers.

CinePost_Still.jpg
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#9 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 08:04 PM

The CinePost guys can be really good. Their standby rate of $135/hour is hard to beat. Keep in mind that they get pretty busy too. Here's a still from a transfer last year. It was Vision 200T. (not the Vision2 version)

If you need processing, they can arrange it, but they don't do it themselves. Bonolabs will process just about any type of stock and transfer it for you, but I think they are more expensive on transfers.

CinePost_Still.jpg


What do I look for on the cartridge that tells me if the stock is Vision 200T or the Vision2, 200T).

I already had an open cartridge so I couldn't check the box because it was gone.
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#10 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 10:13 PM

What do I look for on the cartridge that tells me if the stock is Vision 200T or the Vision2, 200T).

I already had an open cartridge so I couldn't check the box because it was gone.


VISION 200T = 7274

VISION2 200T = 7217
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#11 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 10:33 PM

VISION 200T = 7274

VISION2 200T = 7217


Gasp, I just checked the film cartridge label and it does not state whether it is 7274 or 7217.
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#12 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 10:35 PM

Gasp, I just checked the film cartridge label and it does not state whether it is 7274 or 7217.


So what DOES the label say?
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#13 Will Montgomery

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 11:07 PM

Unless you know what to look for, you probably won't notice the difference... the original Vision stocks look great and the new ones are great too. When I compare Vision stocks from last year vs. the Vision2 stocks in Super 8, I see a little less grain but not that much of a difference.

What you'll find amazing is the difference between any negative Kodak stock and any reversal stock. If you're used to seeing reversal stocks telecined, this is a whole new world. Try cutting together DV footage and some of this Vision stock (transfered well) of the same event, people will say how great the film looks and wait for those scenes. Keep in mind that it is a different asthetic than reversal film, it almost looks less "film like" which can be good or bad depending on what you're going for.

They are also much more forgiving on exposure problems... its hard for me to go back to Kodachrome or Ektachrome after using negative stocks just because I have to be much more aware of the light with reversal stocks.
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#14 Matt Sandstrom

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 07:17 AM

if it says surveillance film it's probably the old vision, or even exr if it's more than five years old. is it pro8 perhaps?

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#15 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 11:36 AM

if it says surveillance film it's probably the old vision, or even exr if it's more than five years old. is it pro8 perhaps?

/matt


I don't remember the circumstances under which I bought it now,I think I bought it directly from Kodak Hollywood when I bought a whole bunch of film a couple of years ago, which probably means it's the older Vision stock.

The label says......

A 183510

picture of a bulb - 3200K El 200/24 (with a small "o" after the 24-is that degrees?)

picture of the sun- filter no.85 El 125/22 (with a small "o" after the 24)

Color Negative Film Process ECN.2 303308 D
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#16 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 12:02 PM

Those six-digit numbers look like catalog numbers. I don't have a record of what the catalog numbers of the VISION films were, but you might compare to another cartridge you know the identity of from the box.
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#17 Will Montgomery

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 02:56 PM

Try it out and see what you get, in the future I'd just call up Kodak and have them deliver film to your door... then you know its fresh and pretty much the best price.

I just wish Kodak would setup a web site for ordering... but I'd hate to see those nice Kodak sales people lose their jobs. At least put the pricing up on the site.
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#18 John Hyde

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 05:17 PM

Some companies like Spectra Film package fresh Kodak brand film with their processing (prepaid) at a discounted rate. This is actually cheaper than buying the film from Kodak and getting the processing done separately. Plus, it saves on gas/shipping.

I also use Spectra's internet ordering for some of my film orders. They take care of it without any delay just as they would with a phone order.
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#19 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 06:16 PM

Some companies like Spectra Film package fresh Kodak brand film with their processing (prepaid) at a discounted rate. This is actually cheaper than buying the film from Kodak and getting the processing done separately. Plus, it saves on gas/shipping.

I also use Spectra's internet ordering for some of my film orders. They take care of it without any delay just as they would with a phone order.


I saw some vision 200 that they processed and transferred. It looked really good, surprisingly good. It was an interior shot.

I shot Vision 200 at night once and it was a bit too grainy for my taste, however, it easily could have been pulled a stop as the extra sensitivity actually turned the nighttime sky into what almost looked like daylight.
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#20 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 12:26 PM

Some companies like Spectra Film package fresh Kodak brand film with their processing (prepaid) at a discounted rate. This is actually cheaper than buying the film from Kodak and getting the processing done separately. Plus, it saves on gas/shipping.

I also use Spectra's internet ordering for some of my film orders. They take care of it without any delay just as they would with a phone order.


Their rates are pretty good, comes out to about the same if I were to Kodak-Forde-Cinepost, minus all the shipping. and I hear they do good work.
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