Jump to content


85a Filter and k40 Regular 8


  • Please log in to reply
13 replies to this topic

#1 Joseph Gioielli

Joseph Gioielli
  • Guests

Posted 03 September 2005 - 11:58 PM

I never realized that K40 was a tungsten balanced film. I have a bolex regular8 camera. I never used the 85a (the filter is unlabled but it appears to be a pink 85a) but the 10 rolls I've put through the camera (all shot outdoors) came out fine.

Shouldn't it have come out orange?

Thanks
Joe
  • 0

#2 Marty Hamrick

Marty Hamrick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 543 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Oshawa, Ontario

Posted 06 September 2005 - 08:02 PM

I never realized that K40 was a tungsten balanced film. I have a bolex regular8 camera. I never used the 85a (the filter is unlabled but it appears to be a pink 85a) but the 10 rolls I've put through the camera (all shot outdoors) came out fine.

Shouldn't it have come out orange?

Thanks
Joe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



If you shot tungsten balanced film without the 85 in daylight or under cold florescents,HMI's,or anything else rated much over 4000K,it would come out blue.K40 I think is rated at 3200K.Pink??An 85 A filter is orange,the 85B is a bit warmer.Interesting.What time of day were you shooting and under what conditions?
  • 0

#3 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19759 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 06 September 2005 - 08:43 PM

Without the 85A, K40 should look blue in daylight and correct in 3400K lighting. The only way it would look orange is if you shot in tungsten light and left the 85A filter in.
  • 0

#4 S8 Booster

S8 Booster
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 132 posts
  • Other
  • retired

Posted 07 September 2005 - 01:43 AM

the filter for K40 is not a 85A it is a plain 85.

From Filmshooting comRe: Reg8, K40 and the 85a filter

An 85 and an 85A are not the same thing:

  • An 85 decreases the color temperature from 5500 to 3400 degrees Kelvin
  • An 85A decreases the color temperature from 5500 to 3100 degrees Kelvin
  • An 85B decreases the color temperature from 5500 to 3200 degrees Kelvin
  • An 85C decreases the color temperature from 5500 to 3800 degrees Kelvin
I think K40 is balanced for 3200 K requiring an 85B if shooting outdoors.  The built in filter in S8 cams is, I think, and 85.  An 85A would make the picture slightly warmer (redder).


Not showing the 85A but for general reference:

Posted Image

S
  • 0

#5 Joseph Gioielli

Joseph Gioielli
  • Guests

Posted 07 September 2005 - 06:04 PM

Thanks, What I did was use Cinechrome 25 daylight so everything was fine. My memory was faulty.

S8 Booster: Thanks, there was a later correction in the afore mentioned thread. ilter buying is something I do only with reference book in hand. (See above comment about my memoryy)

Thanks Again
Joe
  • 0

#6 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19759 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 07 September 2005 - 11:05 PM

According to Harrison & Harrison and Tiffen, the 85 and the 85A are the same filter, for correcting 5500K to 3400K. Even the posted Tiffen chart confirms this. I used to have a long CML post by Hank Harrison of Harrison & Harrison explaining the evolution of the 85 / 85 A filter.

Also, K40 is a "Type A" film, balanced for 3400K, therefore the 85A / 85 filter is recommended for conversion of daylight. K40:

http://www.kodak.com...1.4.4.6.6&lc=en

http://www.tiffen.co...s&itemnum=40585]
  • 0

#7 S8 Booster

S8 Booster
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 132 posts
  • Other
  • retired

Posted 08 September 2005 - 01:03 AM

Apparently a misprint by Tiffen and the writers of your refrence books seemed to have been confused. 85 filteres are often confusingly being referred as 85As and vice versa but they are not the same.

This is correct:

Cokin Orange Filters

85 SERIES COLOR CONVERSION CHART
The     # 85   decreases the color temperature from 5500-3400 degrees Kelvin
An 029 (85A) decreases the color temperature from 5500-3100 degrees Kelvin
An 030 (85B) decreases the color temperature from 5500-3200 degrees Kelvin
An 031 (85C) decreases the color temperature from 5500-3800 degrees Kelvin


It is also interesting to se how the k40 responds very differently on colour temperatures of 3400K/ISO40 (movielight) and 3200K/ISO32 (tungsten)

From the Kodak K40 WEB site: Kodak: Technical Data 7268 / 7270

ISO Speed[2]

Light Source KODAK WRATTEN Gelatin Filter / Arithmetic / Logarithmic

Movie Light (3400 K)
Filter: None
ISO 40 /17°

Tungsten (3200 K)
Filter: Light Balancing  Filter No. 82A
ISO 32[1] /16°

Daylight
Filter: Light Conversion  No. 85
ISO 25 / 15°


s
  • 0

#8 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19759 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 08 September 2005 - 11:52 PM

Well, a sample of various filter makers online (Tiffen, Hoya, even some Cokin pages) show that they consider the 85 and the 85A to be the same filter, and that it converts 5500K to 3400K.

http://www.thkphoto....hoya/cf-03.html
http://www.tiffen.co...rs&itemnum=5285
http://www.2filter.c...kin/cokinp.html

And K40 is a Type A film that is balanced to 3400K according to Kodak.

Now you can say that the filter makers are wrong and that Kodak is wrong if you want to, but I don't see the point of not believing them. But you are free to order an 85 and 85A filter from these companies and see if they are different. Personally when the president of a filter compay like Hank Harrison tells me that the 85 and the 85A filter are the same thing, I tend to believe him.


Here was the original CML post by Mr. Harrison:

I am impressed with the discussion on the use of 85 and 85-B filters. A little history lesson might be appropriate in light of the wave of post production and computer imaging currently riding the crest of popularity.

First, let me say, that now as in the past, science had been unable to manufacture a variable "RECEIVER', be it film, tape, television, pixels, etc. All color receivers manufactured to capture visual images are each color balanced for "ONE" Kelvin temperature. The one for which it was designed.

The first color films were introduced to the industry back in the mid 1930's. Type "B" films were color balanced to tungsten light (3,200K). A very important point of reference, since the light was known, had a standard Kelvin temperature and was measurable.

Even though film emulsions were all over the lot, in those early days the industry needed to convert tungsten films to daylight. The first conversion filter was a #83. (A medium orange color).

As the emulsions became stable, Eastman Kodak discontinued the #83 and introduced the 85-B. The nomenclature contained the complete use for the
filter. An 85-B for use with Type B films rated at 3,200K.

The next film venture was the manufacturing of Type A films, color balanced to 3,400K, that required less color conversion and gave birth to the #85 filter.
For those of you who keep adding the #81 series to your #85, you should check your film and filter relationships. A straight #85 is 200 degrees "Color Short" for converting 3,400K rated films to daylight.

As for using no filter and color correcting in the lab, my personal view has always been to correct in the camera. You might ask Why? Well --- The energized light carrying an image from a scene to the receiver when measured with a Kelvin temperature meter, is a mean average. Conversion filters correct the mean averages, but some points of light are warmer than the average and some points of light are colder. It is these slight color variations that give "LIFE" to color pictures.

When correction is performed in the lab, it's the same as painting the entire scene with a paint brush. The original image is overlaid with an optical color coating. The results are acceptable but stagnant. The color coating does not mix with the light of a scene.

How about the use of 85-C filters, that equals 1/2 of an 85? It converts 3,800K to daylight for use in late afternoon, when a full 85 conversion would be too warm.

One more point of information; The original 85 type A nomenclature was shortened to 85-A then to 85. They are all the SAME filter.

As for the 85-B and 85-C, these have no secondary name or symbol.

Hank Harrison
Harrison & Harrison Filters
  • 0

#9 S8 Booster

S8 Booster
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 132 posts
  • Other
  • retired

Posted 09 September 2005 - 01:45 AM

well, just simply try a 85 (5500K->3400K) and a true 85A (5500K->3100K) with any reversal balanced for 3400K and particulary the K40 and you will see what the simple reality is. huge difference.

also there may be of lesser importance if not none with neg film transferred to digital and even with still photography which your references most likly focus on.

nevertheless, no book or written material beats a real test.

also the K40 looks very bad shot in tungsten 3200K (without correction filter) compared to movielight 3400K. this minor difference in light temp makes a huge difference in image quality.

just try this for youiself and you will see.

you and your references may well mix the 85A and 85 designations as much as you want but if you do not keep order on the 5500K->3400K(85) and 5500K->3100K(85A) conversions shooting reversal and espacially K40 you are in big trouble.


s

Edited by S8 Booster, 09 September 2005 - 01:46 AM.

  • 0

#10 santo

santo
  • Guests

Posted 09 September 2005 - 02:20 PM

I think that S8 Booster makes some very good points here, and they are ones that are often ignored or glossed over by people living in digital post fantasy land. Like it says on the Tiffen filter site, most motion picture film is shot with a filter in front of the lens. Colour film, anyways. Spending a couple of bucks to get it pretty close to right when you shoot it pays huge dividends when it comes to post. What does a filter cost vs. time in a professional telecine suite???

And when you're enjoying the hobby aspects of small format, correct filtering is required, or don't even bother shooting that 100 bucks in film. I mean, what are you thinking about if you can't even screw/slide in the right filter before you start burning your money?

I've tested in the past what Booster states here and compared and it is absolutely correct.

It is a shame that probably a lot of really lazy people will just try and use their cameras internal filter for the new 64t. It is a terrific looking film stock based on the latest stuff posted elsewhere when shot with the correct filter screwed on the front of the lens when shooting outdoors. I'd call them cheap for not buying the right filter, but they're dropping money to buy film and developing to get images superior to DV, so it is probably more correct to call them stupid rather than cheap. Wouldn't you agree S8 Booster?

Edited by santo, 09 September 2005 - 02:22 PM.

  • 0

#11 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19759 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 10 September 2005 - 12:09 AM

I never said that you shouldn't use the correct filter for shooting K40 Type A film in daylight, nor 64T. I'm only saying that the 85 and 85A filter are THE SAME THING and was made for Type A film to correct 5500K to 3400K.

If you are shooting film balanced for 3200K like Ektachrome 64T, then the correct filter is the 85B for 5500K to 3200K conversion.

Although since daylight is rarely 5500K exactly, the "correct" filter is not always the "correct" choice for a neutral color balance.

It's pointless to say that the 85 and 85A filter are different if many of the filter makers themselves don't believe so, since they are the ones making the filters.

If a "true" 85A filter converted 5500K to 3100K, it would be even heavier than an 85B (5500K to 3200K), plus I'm not sure even the point since 3200K and 3100K are so close. Besides, K40 is balanced for 3400K, so by your logic, the 85A filter is incorrect for K40, yet it's called the 85 "A" because it was made for Type A film, i.e. film balanced for 3400K. So why would the 85A correct 5500K to 3100K? If three major filter makers say that the 85 and the 85A filter are the same filter, then I believe them more than you.

Now obviously there are some filter makers who make an 85A that corrects 5500K to 3100K. But that doesn't mean that other filter makers 85A filters don't correct 5500K to 3400K. All that matters is that you get a filter that corrects 5500K to 3400K for Type A film in daylight. For many filter makers, the 85 and 85A filter are the same thing, so they don't make separate 85 and 85A filters. They generally just call them the 85, dropping the "A".
  • 0

#12 John Pytlak RIP

John Pytlak RIP

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 3499 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Rochester, NY 14650-1922

Posted 10 September 2005 - 07:41 AM

I think the slightly higher 3400K color temperature "A" type tungsten movie films were balanced for dates back to the days of four blinding floodlights on a light bar, so overdriven to get enough brightness for an EI-12 or EI-25 film that their life was less than a few hours. Lots of fuses blown in those days.

As David notes, "daylight" varies. If you are that particular about exactly matching the light source, you really need to run tests with the lighting conditions you encounter.
  • 0

#13 S8 Booster

S8 Booster
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 132 posts
  • Other
  • retired

Posted 11 September 2005 - 07:05 AM

well, tests + a colour meter will do - i also use stabilized powersupplies for the/any lamps to keep the colour temperature 100% right if that is best for the film when shooting under artificial light conditions. if the bulbs are a bit off the powersupply voltage can be adjusted to exactly give the precise colour temperature for the film whatever it is. anyway, just look at the various e64t results posted on shooting8mm whereas it turns awfully blue shot in avr daylight using the 85 5500K->3400K filter balcanced for K40 while it shows up a totally different and nice boquet of colours with the 85B filter 5500K->3200K. for reversals a deviation of 200k creates wonders or disaters so just do not try to tell me that a film balanced for 3400k in the first place will do fine with a 3100k filter whatever the books says.

also, for redtops over here bulbs for both 3400k and 3200k are available and the improvement for the k40 is awesome when it gets the "right" artificial light balance which it is designed for. both bulbs can be interchanged for teh carious filoms wheter it is 3200 or 3400k.

no fuse blow at 800w per top.

s
  • 0

#14 Sam Wells

Sam Wells
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1751 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 11 September 2005 - 10:00 AM

Oh bullshit.

I've shot Tung balanced Kodachrome under all kinds of color temp lamps.

I've shot K40 with both 85 and 85B filters.

Looks great.

Throw away your charts and take to the streets :D

-Sam
  • 0


Gamma Ray Digital Inc

rebotnix Technologies

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Metropolis Post

CineLab

Tai Audio

CineTape

Wooden Camera

Willys Widgets

The Slider

FJS International, LLC

Opal

Paralinx LLC

Glidecam

Visual Products

Technodolly

Aerial Filmworks

Abel Cine

Ritter Battery

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Rig Wheels Passport

Rig Wheels Passport

Opal

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Visual Products

Paralinx LLC

Tai Audio

Ritter Battery

Willys Widgets

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Technodolly

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Metropolis Post

CineTape

Wooden Camera

rebotnix Technologies

CineLab

Abel Cine

Glidecam

The Slider

Aerial Filmworks

FJS International, LLC