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Panasonic, P2 and Rea;-time Editing...


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#1 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 15 September 2005 - 06:58 PM

What kind of computer is it gonna take to edit in real time HD the Footage from a Panasonic HVX-200, recorded in 1080p 24 format to a P2 card?

This seems to me like it will take a computer very powerful, as those are some amazing specs.

That would be the only reason to choose the HVX 200 for me, would be to record in 1080 24p to the P2 Card with no Mpeg Compression.... But I'm wondering what kind of computer outfit it is gonna take to be able to edit that kind of footage in real-time?

Just wondering... B)

Maybe it would be wiser to transfer the P2 footage to HDCAM tape and do a tape-to-tape edit? But then you got the expense of the HDCAM VTR + the tape to tape editing suite... Which becomes cheaper? the Computer or Tape to Tape?

Edited by Landon D. Parks, 15 September 2005 - 07:01 PM.

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#2 Gordon Highland

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Posted 15 September 2005 - 07:56 PM

It's actually NOT very intimidating specs, and that's why it's so attractive, keeping it on the desktop instead of using online decks. DVCPROHD is only 100Mb per second. Doesn't take a super-high-end computer, it's lots of RAM and the hard drives you should be more concerned with, even though those requirements aren't that taxing either. Even firewire 800's sustained data rate could handle at least three streams of this in real time, assuming your editing software can do the same. 7200 RPM Serial-ATA drives are probably be your best bet, maybe in a raid. Storage-wise, that's about a GB per minute needed. I can't speak to effects and whatnot in real time.

Uncompressed 10-bit HD-- that's where you're talking about some serious horsepower needed, seeing as how it's around 750Mb/s. . .
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#3 Tim Shim

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Posted 16 September 2005 - 01:19 AM

Check out the Multibridge PCI Express from Blackmagic Design (http://www.blackmagic-design.com). It's coming out soon and can be used to Monitor, Capture and Edit HD footage. In this case, you'll probably be using it to Edit and Monitor your footage. It costs $2595.

You could go for the cheaper DeckLink HD cards but if you want to edit HD, you'll need to upgrade to a PCI-X compatible system - if you're on a PC, you'll need to get a server-grade (Xeon or Opteron) motherboard since these only have the PCI-X 100/133Mhz slots. Expensive ...

If you're lucky to own a dual-processor PowerMac G5 then you're good to go with the PCI-X card.

Another option is the AJA Kona 2 card which is similar to the DeckLink HD Pro card.

Hope this helps.

Tim
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#4 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 16 September 2005 - 01:37 AM

Capture is not a problem, Im looking to buy one of the Panasonic P2 readers that goes into the 5" bay on your computer (assuming I get the Panasonic setup in the first place). Its only like $2,000 or so, its really a good price for what its worth. I think its the model # AJ-PCD10... Heres the link: http://catalog2.pana...fModel=AJ-PCD10

My main concern is not Hard Drive space, cause I know I would need a lot of that. My concern is processor, Ram, etc... I was looking at a dual Pentium Xeon Board with support for 12GB of onboard DDR ram along with 4 Hard Drives with a total of 250GB on each... comes to a total of 1,000GB, which I think is like 1 Terabyte (Maybe I'm wronge? Never was good at conversions).

Anyway, a system like that would cost some money, Im guessing around $7,000 or more with all the monitors, and accessories.

That brings the cost from $6,000 for the camera, $7,000 for the computer and $5,000 (at Least) for camera support. A cool $18,000! Anyone know a good bank to borrow money from :unsure: :o :blink: :huh:
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#5 Tim Shim

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Posted 16 September 2005 - 01:53 AM

Instead of getting the P2 cards and the Reader, why not skip that and instead go with the FireStore FS-100. The P2 cards are $2000 each for only 8GB (15 mins of DVCPRO HD footage). The FS-100 is 40/80GB for around $2000 (90 mins of DVCPRO HD footage). For now, I think the FireStore is the more cost-effective option. Given, the P2 cards are more 'reliable' but I'll wait a bit first - the price will surely come down sooner or later.

I've costed a system for myself - An Apple PowerMac G5 Dual 2.7GHz, decked out, 8GB RAM, 2 30-inch Cinema Displays, Multibridge, HVX200 + FS-100. Around 25 grand.

Tim
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#6 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 16 September 2005 - 09:26 AM

Hi,

Don't buy the P2 card reader. Instead, buy a laptop with a PCMCIA card reader, which you'll need anyway to empty cards on set, and use that as the reader.

> 12GB of onboard DDR ram

Not necessary. Couple of gigs will sort most sane eventualities.

> 4 Hard Drives with a total of 250GB

And a RAID controller. You don't want to have four drives in a RAID-0 array, where the failure of any one will cause catastrophe.

>1,000GB, which I think is like 1 Terabyte

No, that actually IS one terabyte. Which you wouldn't end up with, you'd end upw ith 750Gb in a RAID-5 array. It's most space efficient to have five drives, for a total of 1Tb of protected storage.

Phil
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#7 Stephen Williams

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Posted 16 September 2005 - 02:14 PM

Hi,

Don't buy the P2 card reader. Instead, buy a laptop with a PCMCIA card reader, which you'll need anyway to empty cards on set, and use that as the reader.


Phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Phil,

I think you did a test recently on a P2 camera! Where can I read about it?

Stephen
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#8 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 17 September 2005 - 07:10 PM

Hi,


This magazine:

http://www.newsreel.tv/

Or at least, when they finally get some content up...

Phil
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#9 spiro9210

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 04:31 AM

Uncompressed 10-bit HD-- that's where you're talking about some serious horsepower needed, seeing as how it's around 750Mb/s. . .


Where are you getting your info? Damn! you off by the largest of margins.
Uncompressed 1920x1080p24 10 bit 4:4:4 is 177.9 MB/sec. just go for the dual PowerMAC with hardware raid 0 with kona 2 card for realtime uncompressed HD editing. Harddrive space is another matter.
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#10 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 07:09 AM

Hi,

There's two interesting issues adjacent to all this which I think bear a little discussion.

First off, no matter how highly compressed something is, if you're decompressing it to a 1920x1080 frame then it still takes just as much computing horsepower to run an operation on it. Doing a gaussian blur (a reasonably mathematically intensive operation) on a 1920x1080 24-bit frame derived from HDCAM takes just as much math as doing a gaussian blur on a 1920x1080 24-bit frame derived from HDV or DVCPRO-HD. By the point something like FCP or After Effects gets around to doing operations on it, it's not a 20 or 40Mbit/s data stream anymore, it's a sequence of uncompressed HD bitmaps and it doesn't matter a jot where they came from or what compression artifacts there might be baked into the image. It's still the same number of pixels.

Secondly, working on material that's compressed on disk and then needs to be compressed again for viewing, as is generally the case with DV, is of course more computationally intensive than working uncompressed. To do a realtime colour correction on DV material, an Avid Newscutter (which does it very well) has to read the frame, decompress it, process it, recompress it, and send it out to firewire. In cases such as a primary colour correction, the DV compression will most certainly be more computationally intensive than the actual picture processing.

Of course, working uncompressed stresses the storage array more, and there is a general performance penalty associated with copying all that frame data into the computer's RAM so the processor can work on it, but that's going to be smaller in many cases than the load of doing an advanced DCT compression pass - plus you can upgrade the hard disk array separately from the processor.

In short, working uncompressed on disk will actually increase realtime rendering performance, assuming your hard disks are up to it. And it's not necessarily that difficult or expensive to build a disk array that'll do 177Mb/sec uncompressed.

Phil
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#11 Terence

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 12:40 PM

Seems like some of you guys are getting your bits and your bytes mixed up.
MB = Megabytes
Mb = Megabits (1/8th of a byte) :P
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#12 Sakari Suuronen

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 05:12 PM

So...Is my iMac G5 with 2.1ghz 500gb of hard drive and 1.5gb of ram out of the question with the P2 cards? (I'm a bit confused about all the tech talk...)
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