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#1 Tom Tavee

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 07:50 AM

hi-a newbie here again with another dumb question.

Is the Pro8mm 200T & 500T the exact same film as the Kodak Vision 200T and Kodak 500T?

If so, what's the point? I understand that the 100T at Pro8 is unavailable otherwise,but
why the same ASA,etc.

Thanks in advance.- Tom
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#2 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:00 PM

Pro8 seems to offer one stop shopping (film-process-transfer) for pro shoots that want the aesthetic of S-8.
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#3 Machado

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 05:32 PM

Pro8 seems to offer one stop shopping (film-process-transfer) for pro shoots that want the aesthetic of S-8.

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The pro8mm stuff may be just cut down and re-perfed from 35mm short ends or even 35mm fresh stock. I believe they save a bunch buying it in bulk and loading it into carts themselves....
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#4 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 08:52 PM

The pro8mm stuff may be just cut down and  re-perfed from 35mm short ends or even 35mm fresh stock. I believe they save a bunch buying it in bulk and loading it into carts themselves....

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There's a couple of ways to know for sure that most if not all of the film that Pro-8mm cuts down to Super-8 is either older film stock or recanned film stock instead of new film stock. IF Pro-8mm actually slit down NEW film stock, they sure as heck would ALSO offer recans at an additional discount. But as I know there is no such price differential for the same type of filmstock from Pro-8mm. If there was a price differential for the same film stock, that could be a sign that some filmstock was new, some was recanned.

(warning: satire about to ensue) However, I could see Pro-8mm using only recanned film in the future BUT they would go ahead and only label half of the recanned cartridges as recans, the other half would not be labeled as recans, which would lead a customer to assume it is new film stock when it was actually unlabeled recanned film stock :blink:
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#5 Mike Crane

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 11:09 PM

I second Alex!

Pro8mm competes with Kodak by selling their own brand loaded with inferior Kodak short end stocks. Thats why you see each company selling the same film. Only problem for Pro8 is that Kodak sells "new" film at a lower price! But, apparently some people are still unaware.

There are better places to go with that offer one stop shopping (film-processing-telecine) for the professionals now. And, we now have Kodak in the game. The new alternatives provide both better quality and price than Pro8!

Try Spectra Film and Video or Yale Labs

Do yourself a favor and stick with fresh Kodak product. Your results will be far better and more consistent. ;)
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#6 Tom Tavee

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 06:19 AM

Thanks again- it confirms my suspicions...I will still order the Pro8 100T as I have no other choice, but Kodak sells Vision 200T for around $15.50 @pack. Hard to beat when it's factory fresh and you
don't get any "too cool for school" attitude on the phone...their customer relations needs an overhaul...
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#7 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 01:29 PM

Thanks again- it confirms my suspicions...I will still order the Pro8 100T as I have no other choice, but Kodak sells Vision 200T for around $15.50 @pack. Hard to beat when it's factory fresh and you
don't get any "too cool for school" attitude on the phone...their customer relations needs an overhaul...

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Try shooting the Kodak VISION2 200T Color Negative Film 7217 at EI-100. This will reduce the graininess even more, as well as giving better shadow detail and richer blacks. Really, 7217 has very similar graininess to 7212. The 7212 is only slightly sharper. So 7217 at EI100 will look very good.
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#8 Mike Crane

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 04:41 PM

I do not use Pro8 film any more. But, in case you decide you must, I understand that Spectra Film will process Pro8 film free of charge if you transfer it with them. Better customer service and quality make it an offer worth considering.
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#9 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 01:39 PM

Well I only tried them once, to see how the 100D reversal looked in Super 8... It was the worst looking film I had ever shot. It was either expired film, bad processing, or notched for exposure other than was stated. cost be $150 for 4 carts and my time to shoot 2 of them, lot of stop motion too. So I don't recommend "gambling" at those prices... glad I didn't pay for a telecine package too.
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#10 John Adolfi

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 03:52 PM

Try shooting the Kodak VISION2 200T Color Negative Film 7217 at EI-100.  This will reduce the graininess even more, as well as giving better shadow detail and richer blacks.  Really, 7217 has very similar graininess to 7212.  The 7212 is only slightly sharper.  So 7217 at EI100 will look very good.

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John, If I was to do this and when I send it off to be developed. It will be developed as 200 asa. No pushing or pulling right?

Edited by John Adolfi, 23 September 2005 - 03:52 PM.

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#11 santo

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 04:13 PM

Shoot the new super 8 V2 200t and you will be surprised to find it is a lot finer grained than the original V 200t. I have no doubt a little overexposure will help even more. V2 500t is about where the orignal Vision 200t was.

Based on what I had seen of negatives cut down to super 8 in the past, and based on other independent published tests, I would have disagreed with John. Super 8 is really unforgiving with that tiny frame size and everything is exagerated. HOWEVER, I did some tests and found that V2 200t can take a heck of a lot of abuse exposure-wise compared to exr and whatnot. I have no doubt it could take a full stop overexposure and do as he says. State of the art film technology is amazing. I only pushed my tests to a half-stop. K40 challenging grain even there. And, of course, blowing K40 completely into oblivion with sharpness and colour and shadow detail.
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#12 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 04:38 PM

Shoot the new super 8 V2 200t and you will be surprised to find it is a lot finer grained than the original V 200t. I have no doubt a little overexposure will help even more. V2 500t is about where the orignal Vision 200t was.

Based on what I had seen of negatives cut down to super 8 in the past, and based on other independent published tests, I would have disagreed with John. Super 8 is really unforgiving with that tiny frame size and everything is exagerated. HOWEVER, I did some tests and found that V2 200t can take a heck of a lot of abuse exposure-wise compared to exr and whatnot. I have no doubt it could take a full stop overexposure and do as he says. State of the art film technology is amazing. I only pushed my tests to a half-stop. K40 challenging grain even there. And, of course, blowing K40 completely into oblivion with sharpness and colour and shadow detail.

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So what about overexposing the 200 a stop and a half AND then pulling it a stop in the processing stage?
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#13 santo

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 08:22 PM

So what about overexposing the 200 a stop and a half AND then pulling it a stop in the processing stage?

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Pushing or pulling doubles your processing costs and I try and avoid doubling the cost of anything when possible. It would be cheaper to simply buy V2 100t from Pro8 and shoot it a 1/3 stop overexposed and process it normal and save yourself a big question mark and ten bucks a cart and get what would have to be better results if low grain and sharpness is your goal. Keep in mind that the grain may be lowered in overexposing a negative a bit, but at some point around the full stop mark, there is a point of diminishing return and, as can be seen in other tests around the internet and magazines, a reduction in resolution and sharpness. And pushing and pulling does your image no favours in that department, either. I'll stick to a conservative overexposure and normal processing myself, as I want the best image for a film origination work flow getting the most information I can into Final Cut or Sony Vegas with either an HD or uncompressed AVI scan. I can "push" and "pull" pretty effectively in post with no risk that way. Just my preference, maybe.
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#14 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 09:50 PM

Pushing or pulling doubles your processing costs and I try and avoid doubling the cost of anything when possible. It would be cheaper to simply buy V2 100t from Pro8 and shoot it a 1/3 stop overexposed and process it normal and save yourself a big question mark and ten bucks a cart and get what would have to be better results if low grain and sharpness is your goal. Keep in mind that the grain may be lowered in overexposing a negative a bit, but at some point around the full stop mark, there is a point of diminishing return and, as can be seen in other tests around the internet and magazines, a reduction in resolution and sharpness. And pushing and pulling does your image no favours in that department, either. I'll stick to a conservative overexposure and normal processing myself, as I want the best image for a film origination work flow getting the most information I can into Final Cut or Sony Vegas with either an HD or uncompressed AVI scan. I can "push" and "pull" pretty effectively in post with no risk that way. Just my preference, maybe.

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Are the extra charges per cartridge? And if yes, why?
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