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#1 Fulgencio Martinez

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 07:51 AM

Hi,
I recently shoot a music documentary with two dvx100 cameras. We shoot 25 hours of material. i´m very interested about the posibilities of the new camera, but, where do i keep the 25hours of 720p.
I think keeping 25 hours of material, wich is the complete work of a couple of months, into a harddrive is nonsense.
Is there any cheap ( to buy or rent) hdvcpro deck to put all this into tape without changing the quality (re-encoding)
Any kind of data-tape solution to have a fisical storage.
thanks
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#2 Fulgencio Martinez

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 11:25 AM

Isn´t there anyone interested about storing the material once shoot?
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#3 Stephen Williams

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 01:53 AM

Isn´t there anyone interested about storing the material once shoot?


Hi,

Yes, that's why I shoot important things on film! I recently saw some 16mm I shot in the late 70's retransferred on a Spirit. Looks way better than the original on 1"

Stephen
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#4 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 02:08 AM

Isn´t there anyone interested about storing the material once shoot?


Most of the people want to store their materials,
after all something that is artistic and lasts longer takes more value as the time passes by.
I don't believe that u will loose anything when makin a transfer, it suppose to be a digital recording, both ways doesn't it?
Dimitrios Koukas
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#5 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 06:21 AM

Why not store it on a hard drive? It's no more non-sense than tape. But be warned, your gonna need plenty of hard drive space, or even tape (if you choose that route) to store 25hours of 720p footage!
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#6 Stephen Williams

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 07:07 AM

Why not store it on a hard drive? It's no more non-sense than tape. But be warned, your gonna need plenty of hard drive space, or even tape (if you choose that route) to store 25hours of 720p footage!



Landon,

Will the hard drive still work in 25 years? If there is any chance of failure it's no good for archive purposes.

Stephen
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#7 Tim J Durham

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 07:59 AM

Hi,
I recently shoot a music documentary with two dvx100 cameras. We shoot 25 hours of material. i´m very interested about the posibilities of the new camera, but, where do i keep the 25hours of 720p.
I think keeping 25 hours of material, wich is the complete work of a couple of months, into a harddrive is nonsense.
Is there any cheap ( to buy or rent) hdvcpro deck to put all this into tape without changing the quality (re-encoding)
Any kind of data-tape solution to have a fisical storage.
thanks

You can rent a Panasonic HD-1200A deck and dump it onto DVC-Pro tape stock. It'll cost you about $200 a day for the deck and the tapes are $16 ea. If you do it via HD-SDI, there should be no quality loss.
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#8 Stephen Williams

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 08:50 AM

You can rent a Panasonic HD-1200A deck and dump it onto DVC-Pro tape stock. It'll cost you about $200 a day for the deck and the tapes are $16 ea. If you do it via HD-SDI, there should be no quality loss.



Hi,

If the original material is compressed then going Via HD-SDI will loose quality. Its Not a CLONE. HDCAM SR copied in this way also looses quality!

Stephen
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#9 Tim J Durham

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 10:45 AM

Hi,
I recently shoot a music documentary with two dvx100 cameras. We shoot 25 hours of material. i´m very interested about the posibilities of the new camera, but, where do i keep the 25hours of 720p.
I think keeping 25 hours of material, wich is the complete work of a couple of months, into a harddrive is nonsense.
Is there any cheap ( to buy or rent) hdvcpro deck to put all this into tape without changing the quality (re-encoding)
Any kind of data-tape solution to have a fisical storage.
thanks

Go to this page:

http://tinyurl.com/azq9f

and click on the link to "White Paper". The topic of archiving starts on page 10. Panasonic is clearly predicating the whole P2 line on the hope that people want to move away from tape. That's a big gamble, tape has been pretty reliable. Their suggestion of "holographic material" for archiving sounds... cost effective?
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#10 Jan Crittenden

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 06:19 AM

You can rent a Panasonic HD-1200A deck and dump it onto DVC-Pro tape stock. It'll cost you about $200 a day for the deck and the tapes are $16 ea. If you do it via HD-SDI, there should be no quality loss.



Tim, not sure where you are getting your tapes, or perhaps you make the common mistake of thinkng the AJ-P60M or L is a one hour load for DVCPRO HD, it is not. Right now, the AJ-P126L which on a 1200 will give you 1 hour of HD recording you can expect to pay between $25.00 to $30.00 dollars. The $13.00 is a one hour of DVCPRO, or 1/2 hour of DVCPRO50 or a 1/2 hour in the extended record DVCPRO HD machines.

If this project was mine to store I would consider an archival format that they use in the IT industry, like DLT, LTO, where the cost per gig to store is vastly less that DVCPRO tape or even hard drives. If we look at DVCPRO HD as about 1 GB a minute that DVCPRO HD tape is costing roughly $1 a gig. An DLT can store 200 minutes at $50, or .25 a gig. I'd take the .25. The deal is with recording to memory that you do have to come up with a strategy for archive that works, and you need to have a workflow thought out. Once you do that it is very straight-forward and you can have all of the advantages of working in the tape-free domain.

Hope that helps,

Jan
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#11 Tim J Durham

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 07:51 AM

Tim, not sure where you are getting your tapes, or perhaps you make the common mistake of thinkng the AJ-P60M or L is a one hour load for DVCPRO HD, it is not. Right now, the AJ-P126L which on a 1200 will give you 1 hour of HD recording you can expect to pay between $25.00 to $30.00 dollars. The $13.00 is a one hour of DVCPRO, or 1/2 hour of DVCPRO50 or a 1/2 hour in the extended record DVCPRO HD machines.

If this project was mine to store I would consider an archival format that they use in the IT industry, like DLT, LTO, where the cost per gig to store is vastly less that DVCPRO tape or even hard drives. If we look at DVCPRO HD as about 1 GB a minute that DVCPRO HD tape is costing roughly $1 a gig. An DLT can store 200 minutes at $50, or .25 a gig. I'd take the .25. The deal is with recording to memory that you do have to come up with a strategy for archive that works, and you need to have a workflow thought out. Once you do that it is very straight-forward and you can have all of the advantages of working in the tape-free domain.

Hope that helps,

Jan

Hi Jan,
You are correct about the tapes, I WAS thinkiing of Pro50. If you are still out there, how long can I wait before I need to transfer all my shot Pro50 tapes to something else for storage? I am building up quite a
collection as I shoot with your cameras quite a bit so I am actually interested in this topic.

Thanks for dropping by, don't be a stranger..
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#12 Michael Totten

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 10:52 AM

Tim, not sure where you are getting your tapes, or perhaps you make the common mistake of thinkng the AJ-P60M or L is a one hour load for DVCPRO HD, it is not. Right now, the AJ-P126L which on a 1200 will give you 1 hour of HD recording you can expect to pay between $25.00 to $30.00 dollars. The $13.00 is a one hour of DVCPRO, or 1/2 hour of DVCPRO50 or a 1/2 hour in the extended record DVCPRO HD machines.

If this project was mine to store I would consider an archival format that they use in the IT industry, like DLT, LTO, where the cost per gig to store is vastly less that DVCPRO tape or even hard drives. If we look at DVCPRO HD as about 1 GB a minute that DVCPRO HD tape is costing roughly $1 a gig. An DLT can store 200 minutes at $50, or .25 a gig. I'd take the .25. The deal is with recording to memory that you do have to come up with a strategy for archive that works, and you need to have a workflow thought out. Once you do that it is very straight-forward and you can have all of the advantages of working in the tape-free domain.

Hope that helps,

Jan



Hi-

I'm wondering if there would be any loss in quality in the DLT workflow? Also, how long would the average DLT tape last?

Thanks,

Michael
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#13 Riku Naskali

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 06:36 PM

Are you sure you shot with dvx100's? Because they are SD and use minidv.
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#14 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 06:45 PM

Hi,

> I'm wondering if there would be any loss in quality in the DLT workflow?

If you're storing data to DLT, then no, data is data is data.

There are even systems for storing data on miniDV tape as a firewire data device, which is ironic if nothing else!

The thing is, if you're going to shoot P2 and consider DLT your archive, why not just shoot tape to begin with? Archiving and recovery to DLT is far from fast.

Phil
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#15 Brian Wells

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 08:43 PM

Why not store it on a hard drive?

...Because I've had three drives fail on me since 2002! Those are not very good odds!

DL-DVD is the way to go. It's what I currently use to backup my DV Projects. The drives are $60 and the 8.5GB disks are under $4 or even $3 in quantity. That's pretty cheap (although not necessarily very fast).
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#16 Jan Doggen

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 06:39 AM

...Because I've had three drives fail on me since 2002! Those are not very good odds!

DL-DVD is the way to go. It's what I currently use to backup my DV Projects. The drives are $60 and the 8.5GB disks are under $4 or even $3 in quantity. That's pretty cheap (although not necessarily very fast).


the question is: how long will those DVD's last? i've had cd-r's and dvd's losing information even after just a few months. others are still okay after 10 years (cd's) but i'm not taking that risk.

a study of a consumer organisation in the netherlands (i think) revealed that something like 30% of cd-r media failed after just 2 years storage in a dark and dry environment even though cd-r media are supposed to be safe for at least 25 years or something. the is no reason why dvd+-r's should do any better.

plus 8.5 GB doesn't hold many minutes of DVCPRO HD footage. it's okay for SD DV but even then if you are trying to backup concert footage you'll have to start cutting the files up.

DLT's sound like a very safe option. Make 2 copies and keep them in different places.

JD
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#17 Häakon

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:53 PM

Not that many people have DLT equipment. Everyone has a DVD-R drive and most new drives being sold are DL compatible these days. 8.5GB may not sound like much, but it's a perfect 1:1 storage medium for an 8GB P2 card. Back up a card to a DL disc, and you've got a logical mechanism for organizing your data in the order you shot it.

I have CD-Rs that are ten years old and badly scratched, and I can still pull data from them. The hard drives I've owned over the years that have failed are completely useless. I'd rather back up to optical disc than hard disk any day of the week.
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