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Changing the shutter angle to blur the images


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#1 Valentina Caniglia

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 06:31 PM

Hi all,

I am shooting a film and I would like recreate a blurred effect like the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan or the woman in the bar waiting in 2046 (which I think is double explosure).

If I open the shutter angle at 11 or even more would I be able to achieve the blurred effect or should I close the shutter angle?

If you can give me any idea let me know.

Thanks

V.
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#2 Allen Achterberg

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 12:54 AM

Hi all,

I am shooting a film and I would like recreate a blurred effect like the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan or the woman in the bar waiting in 2046 (which I think is double explosure).

If I open the shutter angle at 11 or even more would I be able to achieve the blurred effect or should I close the shutter angle?

If you can give me any idea let me know.

Thanks

V.



standard is at 180 degrees, the lower you go the sharper the image is. 45 degrees is very sharp. maybe you want 210 degrees or so, the only real way to find out what amoun you want is to do a few test. But the closer you get to 360 degrees the more motion blur you get.
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#3 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 04:46 AM

Hi all,

I am shooting a film and I would like recreate a blurred effect like the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan or the woman in the bar waiting in 2046 (which I think is double explosure).

If I open the shutter angle at 11 or even more would I be able to achieve the blurred effect or should I close the shutter angle?

If you can give me any idea let me know.

Thanks

V.

Just do a test without any shutter on.Tell to the house to remove it for you.
This will give something like a double vision effect though.With the motion blur.
Dimitrios Koukas
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#4 andrewbuchanan

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 07:01 AM

Yeah, I'm with Dimitrios. I've seen some really cool stuff from a K3 16mm with no shutter. I'd start there.
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#5 Boone Hudgins

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 06:58 PM

That stuff was all step printing, was it not? Shoot at 3 or 6 frames per second, then slow it down to 24 frames in post?
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#6 George Lekovic

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 07:26 PM

Hi all,

I am shooting a film and I would like recreate a blurred effect like the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan or the woman in the bar waiting in 2046 (which I think is double explosure).

If I open the shutter angle at 11 or even more would I be able to achieve the blurred effect or should I close the shutter angle?

If you can give me any idea let me know.

Thanks

V.


For some odd reason I remember 'Saving Private Ryan' being shot with a very high shutter angle. I might be wrong.

:blink:
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#7 Wendell_Greene

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 07:44 PM

Hi all,

I am shooting a film and I would like recreate a blurred effect like the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan...



The Omaha beach scenes of Spielberg's "SPR" were filmed by Janusz Kaminski with the shutter narrowed to both 45 and 90 degrees. Kaminski also used older camera lenses without any reflective coating, which when combined with the narrowed shutter, caused streaking, blurring and flares, reminiscent of the original footage of the Normandy landing.

The scene from "2046" employed step printing which means they probably shot at 6 fps and then printed four frames for every original frame and then projected at 24 frames per second. Wong Kar Wai and Chris Doyle have done in other films they worked on together like "Fallen Angels" and "ChungKing Express" both of which looked really cool because of the all the neon and fluorescent lights in the frame which strobed and blurred.
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#8 Boone Hudgins

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 12:20 AM

There was a small piece of the Omaha Beach scene in Saving Private Ryan that was step printed to slow the action down, if I'm remembering right. Tom Hanks' character froze and was looking around him, and everything slowed down.
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#9 Christopher Wedding

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 03:49 PM

I think there's also a way to 'rephase' your shutter so that the gate is open only during the pull down and closed when the registration pin is holding the film in place. Pretty sure that's how they did the Limey effect in the flashbacks.
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#10 Bob Hayes

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 12:55 AM

?I think there's also a way to 'rephase' your shutter so that the gate is open only during the pull down and closed when the registration pin is holding the film in place. Pretty sure that's how they did the Limey effect in the flashbacks.?

The trick is to shoot at a 45 deghree shutter which is easy and then put the shutter slightly out of sync which is tough. You want the film to start to move to the next frame before the shutter closes. The effecty can only be judged by testing it. You can check it by putting a marker dot on th emulsion side and look through the lens port. If you see the dot move, even a little you are out of sync.
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#11 Stephen Williams

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 04:18 AM

I think there's also a way to 'rephase' your shutter so that the gate is open only during the pull down and closed when the registration pin is holding the film in place. Pretty sure that's how they did the Limey effect in the flashbacks.


Hi,

Very easy on a camera like the Arri 435 where the shutter and movement are controlled by different motors.
Ask your friendly rental house!

Stephen
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#12 Valentina Caniglia

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 05:59 PM

Thanks to all of you.

I have another question.
1) If I close my shutter angle at 360 what would be my exposure compensation?
2) if I shoot in 6fps and I step print should I have an explosure realtive to the 6fps?
3) How should I calculate the explosure if I will have the shutter removed?

Thanks

V.
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#13 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:29 AM

You can calculate exposure based on exposure time with light meter. If there is no shutter , there is no shutter angle, so 24fps would be 1/24th second exposure, or 1/6th of a second at 6 fps.

You can tell SPR was filmed with a narrow shutter by the sharp but choppy motion blur in the action scenes, especially when you see sand getting kicked up.. I like that look.
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#14 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 01:34 AM

The streaky motion from longer exposure times -- as in that one moment in "Saving Private Ryan" when Hanks sees the soldier pick up his own arm -- or in the later half of the first battle in "Gladiator" or many times in Wong Kar Wai's movies, is done by undercranking, like to 6 fps.

At low frame rates, the exposure time per frame is longer, so there is more blur. Then the footage has to be speed-corrected to not look sped-up when shown at 24 fps. If this is for telecine transfer only, you can use a telecine with MetaSpeed and just transfer it at 6 fps or whatever you shot at. If not possible, then transfer it at 24 fps and slow it down in post to look normal in speed.

If this is for print, you'd either have to use an optical printer and dupes to make an I.N. for the shot where the action has been step-printed (every frame reprinted three or four times, let's say) or it has to be done digitally and recorded back to an I.N.
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#15 Valentina Caniglia

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 07:57 PM

Thanks to all of you for your response.

I have one more question for David to get things straight.

So the scene in Saving Private Ryan was not shot with different shutter angle but with 6fps and tranfer it with Meta Speed at 6 fps. When I shoot on 6fps and I go through the telecine should I tell the lab to use the metaspeed or I just tell them to not transfer the footage in 24fps but in 6fps?

Thanks

V.
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#16 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 09:37 PM

You have to find a transfer house that can run film through their telecine at 6 fps. Just ask them.
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#17 timHealy

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 08:51 AM

If I am not mistaken, Bob Richardson did a lot of this type of shooting in JFK for the flashback and recreation scenes which I thought was a brilliant film. regardless if you believe in conspiracy's or not.

Tim
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#18 Valentina Caniglia

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 12:39 PM

Dear All,

Thanks for your response.

Right now I am facing another reality. The producetion decided to go for S16mm using an Aaatoon XTR. I spoke with the camera rental house and they told me that the Aatoon can't get the shutter angle to 210 or 360. You can only open the shutter angle. The only alternative to get the blurred effect will be shooting in 6fps and transfer it in 6fps. Do you have any recommendation in how to create the blurred effect?

Thanks

V.
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#19 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 03:40 PM

Dear All,

Thanks for your response.

Right now I am facing another reality. The producetion decided to go for S16mm using an Aaatoon XTR. I spoke with the camera rental house and they told me that the Aatoon can't get the shutter angle to 210 or 360. You can only open the shutter angle. The only alternative to get the blurred effect will be shooting in 6fps and transfer it in 6fps. Do you have any recommendation in how to create the blurred effect?

Thanks

V.


Hello,
Aaton XTR doesn't have a variable shutter at all, only comes with 180 degrees for countries that use 60Hz, and with an fixed shuter of 172,8 degrees for countries that use 50hz.
Is there any specific reason that you want to change shutter angles? Can't u use another camera just for the shot you want? It needs some caution when u mix 16mm material though, cause you might have registration problems.
And remember that the effect you want to achieve, (as mr. Mullen have allready explained) it needs to be shot at 6fps, the telecine must play 6 fps, but the recording output of the telecine should be on 24 fps.So u transfer it to 24 fps not 6.
Dimitrios Koukas
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