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#1 Bradley Stonesifer

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 02:40 AM

I'm shooting a ten minute short on s16, kodak 7205 for day stuff 250daylight. the look we are trying to accomplish is very similar to the one in "Being John Malkovich"(Primarily John's apartment) I want to blow out the windows and practicals, but still have the feel of naturalistic lighting.
Our plan is to put butcher paper over the windows and shoot a 10k or 5k into the back of it. Ideally it should soften up the room and have a very diffused fall off.
I haven't had the ability to do many test shoots and was hoping that some of you guys have done this before.
Am I going about this the right way, What are things to keep in mind when trying to accomplish this look.

Thanks,
Bradley Stonesifer
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#2 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 04:31 AM

I'm shooting a ten minute short on s16, kodak 7205 for day stuff 250daylight. the look we are trying to accomplish is very similar to the one in "Being John Malkovich"(Primarily John's apartment) I want to blow out the windows and practicals, but still have the feel of naturalistic lighting.
Our plan is to put butcher paper over the windows and shoot a 10k or 5k into the back of it. Ideally it should soften up the room and have a very diffused fall off.
I haven't had the ability to do many test shoots and was hoping that some of you guys have done this before.
Am I going about this the right way, What are things to keep in mind when trying to accomplish this look.

Thanks,
Bradley Stonesifer


Are u going to shoot this nightime and u want it to look daytime?
Even this way, u have to put some CTB on the tungsten sources wich will reduce your light.
I would suggest to go with flicker free HmI's, that u will not have to correct them.
U will need at least a 2,5K HMI cinepar to blow up the windows, I don't know their actuall size.
I use 2,5K and 4K cinepars.
Or you can just find a house that is really into the sun, and u will know what time of the day u can have the windows in the frame.So no use of lights there from outside.Remember that u must have your windows at least 2-3 f/stops (reflected measure) above your actor's f /stop.

I hope that I have been helpfull ,

Dimitrios Koukas
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#3 timHealy

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 07:06 AM

I actually would give it more than 2-3 stops. film has latitude. you could easily go 4 or more.

How are you finishing? if in video you can blow it out more in the transfer. If going to print in the analog world I would do it on the set.

Alos on that film I think they may have used some processing tricks. perhaps you can find out some more with a google search.

Tim
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#4 Matt Sandstrom

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 10:29 AM

make sure the windows are evenly lit. that way if they don't blow out completely they will still be a uniform white which looks pretty much the same. the easiest way should be to use fresnel light sources, or light every window with several lights from different angles.

/matt
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#5 Gordon Highland

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 11:05 AM

Our plan is to put butcher paper over the windows and shoot a 10k or 5k into the back of it.


As others have stated, it's good to fill the entire window frame with even light, but an additional technique is to back up that light and its diffuser a few feet so that you still get this effect, but also put another light off to its side and shoot it directly through the window (no diffusion) at like a 45-degree angle. This gives you the best of both worlds: a uniform blown out window, but also a more realistic-looking, controllable source coming into the room for shadows and such.
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#6 Bradley Stonesifer

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 11:29 AM

I will be shooting during the day on location and want to warm up the outside light so it looks like late afternoon or early morning. Should I balance the inside of the room with 56k and shoot a 10k at the window or should I balance for Tungsten and put a 1/2CTO on the 10k. Is there any other gel that gives a realistic warm afternoon look on a Tungsten balanced light.

Thanks for the info on blowing out 2/3 stops possibly even 4. I will do that.

I am finishing for Video, but want to have a good negative in case we raise more money to make a print.

Brad
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#7 dbledwn11

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 04:38 PM

I will be shooting during the day on location and want to warm up the outside light so it looks like late afternoon or early morning. Should I balance the inside of the room with 56k and shoot a 10k at the window or should I balance for Tungsten and put a 1/2CTO on the 10k. Is there any other gel that gives a realistic warm afternoon look on a Tungsten balanced light.

Thanks for the info on blowing out 2/3 stops possibly even 4. I will do that.

I am finishing for Video, but want to have a good negative in case we raise more money to make a print.

Brad


please take the followin with a pinch of salt and wait for confirmation from an experienced dp. in reading the previous comment not everything was totally clear so i tried my best to clarify and give my two cents. i could very well be wrong but unless i stick my neck out i wont ever learn from my mistakes. consider this an exercise for myself. can't wait to see the response!!!

here goes:

if you balance for 56k (I assume u meaan 5600kelvin i.e. daylight) and use a 10k (i assume u mean an hmi i.e. "daylight") on your daylight stock you'll get "white" light and not an afternoon amber glow.

as far as balancing for tungsten i also assume (third time:-) you mean tungsten sources to illuminate the room your shooting in. having CTO on the 10k will of course provide the amber colour you're after so i would lean for this option.

my main area of confusion was concerning the issue of balancing. i couldn't determine if u meant balancing via colour temp of light sources or film stock (possibly filtered).

i hope i haven't made this more confusing than it needed to be :-(
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#8 Bradley Stonesifer

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 05:09 PM

"if you balance for 56k (I assume u meaan 5600kelvin i.e. daylight) and use a 10k (i assume u mean an hmi i.e. "daylight") on your daylight stock you'll get "white" light and not an afternoon amber glow."

dbledwn11
We also have a sound stage shoot were we need it to feel like afternoon with the blown out windows.
Process#1
I was going to shoot my color chart with an HMI(soundstage) or available light(on location) and then use a 10k fresnal (tungsten) to blow out the window's to give it a warmer feel.

Process#2
Shoot my color chart with the light from the 10k fresnal and then add 1/2 CTO to warm it up when doing the scene.

Of these two what do you think is better or is there another way I should try to achieve this.

Bradley

Edited by Bradley Stonesifer, 06 October 2005 - 05:18 PM.

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#9 Joseph White

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 06:11 PM

id still go with a flicker-free hmi as it'll take up less power than a studio 10k and you can always add a little cto/cts, whatever you like and still get more punch for your buck. if you want things to go warm in timing, i'd shoot your chart as normal so that things will pop warm when you strike those units. a little 1/4 cto or cts on a 4k or 6k HMI will give you a great look - remember, you can always drop a single or double in a bigger hmi.

also remember that if you are shooting 7205 you have tons of vision2 latitude so it'll be a little harder getting the windows to completely blow out - especially if you're trying to do it in-camera with hopes of a future print release - have you considered maybe using 7246? it has less latitude and responds really well to mixed lighting overall - and its a bit cheaper.

happy shooting!
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#10 Justin Hayward

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 08:34 PM

If the window (not sunlight coming through the window) is warm, it won't be "blown out", it'll be orange with no detail. If you want it to look like sunset warm outside, you'll need to see something out the windows (trees or whatever) that is lit warmer.

It's either "blown out" white or it's not. You can't warm up "blown out". You can blow out the window and add some warm sunlight through it, but the window will still be white.

If you do blow the window out white, one thing I try to do is burn it so bright that it eats through the middle of the blinds or panes... or whatever. Somehow this helps me feel like it wasn't shot on a stage.

Justin
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#11 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 07:34 AM

If the window (not sunlight coming through the window) is warm, it won't be "blown out", it'll be orange with no detail. If you want it to look like sunset warm outside, you'll need to see something out the windows (trees or whatever) that is lit warmer.

It's either "blown out" white or it's not. You can't warm up "blown out". You can blow out the window and add some warm sunlight through it, but the window will still be white.

If you do blow the window out white, one thing I try to do is burn it so bright that it eats through the middle of the blinds or panes... or whatever. Somehow this helps me feel like it wasn't shot on a stage.

Justin


Justin m8,
In case I will ever do a shoot there, u will me my gaffer!
Actually u are 95% true here, in the other 5% I would suggest to just black out all the outside light, by making a box out of anything,(black cloth or even the ones I like to use (foamcore material ) and then just put some readheds on dimmers with golden amber (or lighter) gel.
In case that you want to have the light and the colour pass thru the window and light some parts of the scene, then u have to mimic this with lights in the set, above the windows.
Dimitrios Koukas


I will be shooting during the day on location and want to warm up the outside light so it looks like late afternoon or early morning. Should I balance the inside of the room with 56k and shoot a 10k at the window or should I balance for Tungsten and put a 1/2CTO on the 10k. Is there any other gel that gives a realistic warm afternoon look on a Tungsten balanced light.

Thanks for the info on blowing out 2/3 stops possibly even 4. I will do that.

I am finishing for Video, but want to have a good negative in case we raise more money to make a print.

Brad


There is no need for such a big light from outside if you want the afternoon /sunset colour on the windows.
And I have answered your question about blow out the windows.
This is a different effect that you want to achieve, so u need just as little light to colour the paper that u will use on them. And better have it reflected form a big white surface to make 45degrees, on the paper.
This is a good way to have it evenly lit.
Amber gels is what you re lookin for,here are the numbers.
104,134,135.
And yes, u must use a daylight white balance, if you don't filter the lights (or little filter them) from the window, or a tungsten balance with the gels.
Dimitrios Koukas
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#12 dbledwn11

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 12:18 PM

Justin m8,
In case I will ever do a shoot there, u will me my gaffer!
Actually u are 95% true here, in the other 5% I would suggest to just black out all the outside light, by making a box out of anything,(black cloth or even the ones I like to use (foamcore material ) and then just put some readheds on dimmers with golden amber (or lighter) gel.
In case that you want to have the light and the colour pass thru the window and light some parts of the scene, then u have to mimic this with lights in the set, above the windows.
Dimitrios Koukas
There is no need for such a big light from outside if you want the afternoon /sunset colour on the windows.
And I have answered your question about blow out the windows.
This is a different effect that you want to achieve, so u need just as little light to colour the paper that u will use on them. And better have it reflected form a big white surface to make 45degrees, on the paper.
This is a good way to have it evenly lit.
Amber gels is what you re lookin for,here are the numbers.
104,134,135.
And yes, u must use a daylight white balance, if you don't filter the lights (or little filter them) from the window, or a tungsten balance with the gels.
Dimitrios Koukas


dimitrios, i'm confused - u say to balance for daylight and not filter the lights - surely no orange will exist in the scene to suggest the afternoon light. this was something i had suggested in an earlier post to which no one has explicitly given a response to or confirmation of whether i'm right or wrong.

my general take on the situation was as follows:
using daylight stock with the hmi gelled with cto (which will create warmth once the light begins to fall off and hits surfaces) balanced colour chart for 5500k to really let the warmth come through.
haven't thought about the practicals but i suppose photofloods.

like i said before i'm sticking my neck out and could be wrong... please be gentle:-)
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#13 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 02:25 PM

dimitrios, i'm confused - u say to balance for daylight and not filter the lights - surely no orange will exist in the scene to suggest the afternoon light. this was something i had suggested in an earlier post to which no one has explicitly given a response to or confirmation of whether i'm right or wrong.

my general take on the situation was as follows:
using daylight stock with the hmi gelled with cto (which will create warmth once the light begins to fall off and hits surfaces) balanced colour chart for 5500k to really let the warmth come through.
haven't thought about the practicals but i suppose photofloods.

like i said before i'm sticking my neck out and could be wrong... please be gentle:-)


All my suggestions were about what u should do with the window lights, and not for lights that one should use from the inside.
If you go for 5600/5500K then it's obvious someone should use 5500/5600 K lights.
The rest goes for windows... And it's tungsten all the time for windows, just the first time filtered with a tungsten film or balance, while unfiltered, or less filtered for a daylight film or balance.
That's why I have suggested them to be on dimmers, cause u can control the quality of light, the quantity and the colour.
Sorry if I have been confusing.
Dimitrios Koukas
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#14 Tomas Koolhaas

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 04:30 PM

Hello,
There are a number of ways to blow-out windows her are some I have used:
1- using tracing paper or 216 on the windows then shooting a light directly into/through it- works pretty well but can look a little unnatural, depending on the film stocks lattitude you may have to go even more than 4 stops over to get pure white (although as someone rightly stated you can blow them out more in telecine).
2- you can put a large bounce board/gold reflector (if you want warm sunset look) directly outside of the window and hit it with a bright enough light to make it about 5 stops (again depending on your stock's lattitude) brighter than your exposure inside (using a reflected reading).

The key with this effect is to cover the entire window with evenly lit paper/diffusion, or make sure you get a big enough bounce board/reflector to toally fill the window. And make sure it is TOTALLY blown out (probably around 5 stops on most newer negative stocks), I once shot with Reala 500D and went 4.5 over and still had a tiny bit of detail in a window with 216 on it. Also, you can warm up a blown out window by using a coloured reflector/bounce board or Warm gels like full straw.
Cheers.
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#15 Chris Cooke

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 11:32 PM

Also, you can warm up a blown out window by using a coloured reflector/bounce board or Warm gels like full straw.
Cheers.


As Justin Hayward has already pointed out, you cannot "warm up a blown out window". If it's truly blown out, the window will be white, no matter what color gel you have on the light. I would use an amber gel behind 216 that's 2 stops over. This will ensure that you don't see any detail but the window will have a warm tone.
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#16 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 05:19 AM

And make sure it is TOTALLY blown out (probably around 5 stops on most newer negative stocks), I once shot with Reala 500D and went 4.5 over and still had a tiny bit of detail in a window with 216 on it. Also, you can warm up a blown out window by using a coloured reflector/bounce board or Warm gels like full straw.
Cheers.


Tomas,
A 5 to 4 stops sometimes is a no,no, when u re using pro-mists.And he doesn't want to blow out the window, he wants to colour it with amber light, like the sunset's.
Dimitrios Koukas
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#17 Bradley Stonesifer

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 01:30 PM

I do want to blow out the windows, and have and amber tint to them. I'm going to try the butcher paper or tracing paper with amber gels on the lights about 4 stops over. I'm assuming the room will become filled with soft even light due to the diffusion of the tracing paper. I was going to use some practicals or small 650's on a dimmer for some kickers. Any suggestion?

Bradley
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#18 dbledwn11

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 12:45 PM

i understand all this stuff about the windows being blown out and producing white light, but am i right in thinking, as i suggested before, that you will eventually get the sense of orange/amber/afternoon light entering the room as it begins to fall off and hit surfaces???
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#19 Chris Cooke

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 03:57 PM

i understand all this stuff about the windows being blown out and producing white light, but am i right in thinking, as i suggested before, that you will eventually get the sense of orange/amber/afternoon light entering the room as it begins to fall off and hit surfaces???


Yes, that's exactly what'll happen.
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#20 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 05:18 PM

Yes, that's exactly what'll happen.


Yes,
this will happen, it's just that the windows will not have orange colour anymore.
Dimitrios Koukas
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