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Negative Film Latitude debate


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#1 Richard Vialet

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 08:56 AM

I don't know if im gonna sound like a real doofus for asking this...

But I've been having much debate with people about the average latidude of the recent color negative motion picture film stocks. So I'm asking anyone to confidently tell me: how many stops of underexposure will get me true black, and how many stops of overexposure will get me true white?

I'm referring to the Kodak Vision and Vision2 stocks and the new Fuji stocks...but also is there a big difference in latitude when comparing the Vision stuff and the Fuji stuff (i know Fuji is supposedly softer and less contrasty, but does that mean it has more latitude)

And also by the way, does anyone know of a link where I can get info on the upcoming Vision2 50D stock?

I apologize for the rack of questions...
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#2 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 10:08 AM

I don't know if im gonna sound like a real doofus for asking this...

But I've been having much debate with people about the average latidude of the recent color negative motion picture film stocks. So I'm asking anyone to confidently tell me: how many stops of underexposure will get me true black, and how many stops of overexposure will get me true white?

I'm referring to the Kodak Vision and Vision2 stocks and the new Fuji stocks...but also is there a big difference in latitude when comparing the Vision stuff and the Fuji stuff (i know Fuji is supposedly softer and less contrasty, but does that mean it has more latitude)

And also by the way, does anyone know of a link where I can get info on the upcoming Vision2 50D stock?

I apologize for the rack of questions...


Kodak publishes the sensitometric data for each of its motion picture products. It's in the technical data for each film:

http://www.kodak.com...0.1.4.4.4&lc=en

"Latitude" is usually calculated from the length of the straight-line portion of a color negative's sensitometric curve, although useful scene information is still captured on the "toe" and "shoulder" portions of the film's characteristic. For example:


Posted Image



Posted Image

A low contrast film does not necessarily have more latitude. The Kodak VISION2 color negative films have been praised for their superior latitude and excellent contrast match, giving a very good neutral scale from deepest shadow to brightest highlight. The VISION2 films also feature excellent reproduction of flesh tones and very natural color reproduction.
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#3 Robert Hughes

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 10:30 AM

John, my question is slightly off-topic for negative film. I saw an E64T test on the filmshooting forum by Ugo in Italy:

http://www.filmshoot...pic.php?t=11499

His exposure tests were remarkable; when overexposed the E64T seemed to not blow out to clear white, but "compressed" the highlights. Even at 2.5 stops above standard exposure the highlights were apparent.

Could you comment?
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#4 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 10:37 AM

John, my question is slightly off-topic for negative film. I saw an E64T test on the filmshooting forum by Ugo in Italy:

http://www.filmshoot...pic.php?t=11499

His exposure tests were remarkable; when overexposed the E64T seemed to not blow out to clear white, but "compressed" the highlights. Even at 2.5 stops above standard exposure the highlights were apparent.

Could you comment?


It's all determined by the "curve shape" of the sensitometric curve. E64T has a very good "toe" characteristic, where the highlights reside.
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#5 Stephen Williams

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 10:56 AM

I don't know if im gonna sound like a real doofus for asking this...

But I've been having much debate with people about the average latidude of the recent color negative motion picture film stocks. So I'm asking anyone to confidently tell me: how many stops of underexposure will get me true black, and how many stops of overexposure will get me true white?

I'm referring to the Kodak Vision and Vision2 stocks and the new Fuji stocks...but also is there a big difference in latitude when comparing the Vision stuff and the Fuji stuff (i know Fuji is supposedly softer and less contrasty, but does that mean it has more latitude)

And also by the way, does anyone know of a link where I can get info on the upcoming Vision2 50D stock?

I apologize for the rack of questions...

Hi,

How many stops of under or exposure you will get away with depends on the contrast ratio of the scene. If the Darkest to lightest is say 5 stops, then over or underexposure by 2.5 stops will give an acceptable result. If the Range is 11 stops then you would have very little room to play.

Stephen
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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 11:31 AM

It also depends on the print stock used, the printer lights used based on overall density, etc. And even lab chemistry may have an effect -- some labs do more "contrasty" work than others.

There will never be an accurate, specific answer to that question, that you still have detail at "x" stops under but none one stop under that.

Negative is one part of a process that gives us a positive image, so you can't really just separate it from the system and only look at the negative if you're talking about blacks and whites in the final image.
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#7 Tim J Durham

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 11:54 AM

It's all determined by the "curve shape" of the sensitometric curve. E64T has a very good "toe" characteristic, where the highlights reside.

John,
I thought you film guys called shadow areas the "toe"? And the highlights were the "shoulder"? In video it's "toe" and "knee" which I guess leaves only the shin-bone for all the mid ranges.
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#8 Laurent Andrieux

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 05:55 PM

You're thinking of negative film... E64T is a reversal film, so that the toe is where the highlights reside...

One should noticethat a 2.5 stops latitude is not that impressive for negative film. It is much more impressive for what's about reversal, by the way
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#9 Adam Frisch FSF

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 06:15 PM

There is no way to say.

Will a man in a white T-shirt be discernible after 5 stops underexposure? Probably. What if he had a black one on? Or a lavender one? It's also how you measure the light - incident or spot on the shirt? And so on.

It's simply impossible to tell as a general rule that would fit all. But 3 over and 3 under is normally considered a good playing field for going from the barely visible to the almost blown out. But discernible is probably a lot more. Then, one has to define discernible... :D
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#10 Laurent Andrieux

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 06:29 PM

Exactly ! and the landscape you see through a window in the frame, for instance, has to be overexposed, in'it ?
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#11 Richard Vialet

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 10:43 PM

Thank you everyone for the replies and the conversations based on the topic, it's helped me out a lot!!!!

Richard
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Opal

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Wooden Camera

Ritter Battery

Tai Audio

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Metropolis Post

Glidecam

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Aerial Filmworks

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