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Cutting magnetic striped film - will it ruin sound?


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#1 David Gottlieb

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 04:21 PM

Can you cut film that already has a magnetic stripe on it before you shoot? I recently bought 2400 feet of Kodak Ektachrome 7240 Video News Film that already is magnetic striped. I have not shot on it yet and it is unopened in my fridge, but i need to know if I'll have to do an in camera edit or 12-minute takes (they're 400' each) or some mixture of both which would be infinitely more complicated than normal editing. I plan to film it with a normal no-sound 16mm camera and add sound in post. On that subject, can you film it without sound and not damage the stripe? This is an expired stock but if anyone knows if you can splice magnetic strips without sound distortion that would help a lot.

Would appreciate any suggestions - thanks!
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#2 Laurent Andrieux

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 05:52 PM

This stock was designed to work with such cameras as the 16 BL. The purpose was to have a positive (it's a reversal stock) that one had only to process and edit as to project it and telecine for news gathering.

I don't know if it may be a problem to use it in a camera that is not designed to work with. Maybe there is a risk that the magnetic stripe sort of scratches somewhere in the camera. I don't know.

Funny you bought this stock though you knew you would not use it in its normal conditions, but, hey, that's life, I guess you got it for cheap...

If you consider shooting the "usual way" - recording the sound on a seperated recorder, it should not occure any problem for what is about editing and stuff. The sound stripe is placed out of the image frame, just ignore it. You can edit and stuff exactly the same way as if this track would not exist. Just "forget" it.

I didn't get from what you were saying if the master will be the 16 mm reversal edited stock itself and if you wish to put the sound you'll produce on the size stripe, but there should not be any other problem than to find a recorder to do that job !

If this is not your plan, mind if I ask what it is ?

Oh and "welcome to these forums", but, please, don't cross post, thanks !
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#3 David Gottlieb

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 06:07 PM

If this is not your plan, mind if I ask what it is ?

[/quote]

I actually ebayed this film not knowing there was a magnetic stripe until it arrived, but it was $80 for all 2400 feet so i wasn't complaining. I recently made a short using tri-x and plus-x reversals and wanted to experiment with color reversals, but a friend who has done this thing on super-8 before told me you hear a weird clicking sound every time there's a cut in the magnetic stripe. I bought some ektachrome print films and i was planning to do all the sound in post on my comp and then give it to the lab to put on the stripe, since it's a one time recording on magnetic. When you cut the film I was told the presstape would overlap the stripe and normally they put the stripe on over the presstapes, but since I have it on already, I'm trying to figure out if I should ignore the stripe entirely and not have a usable sound strip on my masters, something I'm not really comfortable with. I am going to use this to shoot some short films, but I guess I could just ignore the sound strip and only put the sound onto the prints, unless someone else has a better suggestion. I haven't shot with live sound and I don't want to because its a feature and not a newsreel and I add a lot of sound f/x and music in post. The other option would be to shoot it with no intention of cutting (i.e. long takes mixed with in-camera edit), in which case the magnetic stripe would be preserved and I could have a true master.

Still appreciating any and all comments and suggestions - Thanks
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#4 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 07:42 PM

If this is not your plan, mind if I ask what it is ?
I actually ebayed this film.... wanted to experiment with color reversals.


You do reqalize that VNF was discontinued last year and some labs have already stopped processing it?

When you cut the film I was told the presstape would overlap the stripe and normally they put the stripe on over the presstapes, but since I have it on already, I'm trying to figure out if I should ignore the stripe entirely and not have a usable sound strip on my masters, something I'm not really comfortable with. I am going to use this to shoot some short films, but I guess I could just ignore the sound strip and only put the sound onto the prints, unless someone else has a better suggestion.



Originaly the TV folks would run this in a CP-16 with magnetic heads, and play it back on a telecine with magnetic heads. Since the track is not at the same spot as the image, you have to be careful to keep the track in sync. Often as has been said, they would just use a tape head degauser to erase the clicks and blank the track where they had made a cut. The click is partly from the magnetic field on the blade that cuts the film. Typicaly the crew would also shoot Silent footage of the event they were covering, and also splice that in.

If you are doing "typical on film production" - you often will have your master track on a separate roll of Magnetic "fullcoat" stock. In 16mm the phyical cuts are often to an a and B roll basis, so that you can hide the splices, as in 16mm unlike 35mm there is visible overlap. Many folks would record on a magnetic stripe in the camera, and transfer that to fullcoat to edit, ignoring the stripe after that.


I haven't shot with live sound and I don't want to because its a feature and not a newsreel and I add a lot of sound f/x and music in post. The other option would be to shoot it with no intention of cutting (i.e. long takes mixed with in-camera edit), in which case the magnetic stripe would be preserved and I could have a true master.

Still appreciating any and all comments and suggestions - Thanks


You may have to look hard to find a 16mm Mag projector. If you are maiking prints the norm is to use an Optical track. If you are using video editing, you would edit the sound in the video stage. If you conform your camera footage , again you would want ot use fullcoat, and /or make an optical track.

I think that you might be able to get away with a spliced track for recording if you use cement splices, using presstapes will give you two frame dropouts. There used to be special tape splicers that would leave the mag track alone. Good luck finding one for a reasonable price.
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#5 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 08:11 PM

I assume you are going for a 'cheap as chips' film? Good for you. I would be very interested to know if this film still processes o.k. Mag stripe was discontinued long ago. I too however purchased 4000' of VN print film (7399) because it was cheap!

Any way, I'm not sure I follow what you want to do. I certainly think you can put striped film through a non sound recording camera as though it wasn't there. I will say that the mag stripe is ONLY relevant if you either intend to project camera original with a sound mix recorded on the stripe, or you intend to shoot with single system (ie direct onto film) live sound. You say you don't want to do the latter so the only sense in which the stripe is relevant is if you want to project the camera original with mixed sound post recorded onto the stripe. Projecting edited camera original has the same look more or less to projecting a work print -except that you have taken a lot more care not to scratch the film! Given a 'cheap as chips' film, I think that you will have no serious (even no noticable) problem with recording a mixed soundtrack onto spliced camera original. The only issue is covering the track with tape. You can project a work print that is only single sided spliced. A normal tape splicer only splices one side at a time. I don't know what other people do, but I double side spliced my work prints only right at the end when it was all confirmed. If you are using a normal CIR roll tape splicer, splicing one side will leave the other side (with the stripe) free - only, I can't remember whether the stripe was on the emulsion side or the back). In either case, it could quite well be possible to tape only the non-stripe side. Further, I see no inherent difficulty if you want to double side splice in covering the track with the tape, and then cutting a small strip of the tape off with a scalple to reveal the magnetic stripe. That's what I would do!
Richard


If
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#6 David Gottlieb

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 08:35 PM

Thanks for the comments and suggestions: I feel I have a clearer idea of what to do now. I'm going to ignore the magnetic stripe because I won't be projecting the original; I too bought a lot of 7399 (16,000 ft actually) so anything I make I can duplicate onto the print film and then add an optical soundtrack that would work in more places, ignoring completely that the film even came with a magnetic stripe and leaving the sound on my computer and on the prints. I'll just remember that I can't shoot on S16 because of the magnetic stripe.

I still think some places are still doing VNF reversal but if anyone knows places it would help a lot.

Does this sound like a better route to take? Thanks for your comments and suggestions!
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#7 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 01:29 AM

Thanks for the comments and suggestions: I feel I have a clearer idea of what to do now. I'm going to ignore the magnetic stripe because I won't be projecting the original; I too bought a lot of 7399 (16,000 ft actually) so anything I make I can duplicate onto the print film and then add an optical soundtrack that would work in more places, ignoring completely that the film even came with a magnetic stripe and leaving the sound on my computer and on the prints. I'll just remember that I can't shoot on S16 because of the magnetic stripe.

I still think some places are still doing VNF reversal but if anyone knows places it would help a lot.

Does this sound like a better route to take? Thanks for your comments and suggestions!


David,
That's the correct route to take, yes, just becarefull with the old stocks, they can produce chips or dirt that comes from bad storage, so be more carefull with your camera's darkroom and the gate.I believe that u should check most than usual.
Do some tests before you go.
Dimitrios Koukas
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#8 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 04:00 AM

Further, if you intend an optical track on your 7399, tell me, is the stock you have double or singl perf? Mine is double perf (i.e. sprockets both edges). Double perf has sprocket holes where the optical sound track would ordinarily go on a print, and thus cannot be used for a married print.
Richard
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#9 David Gottlieb

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 08:27 AM

Double perf has sprocket holes where the optical sound track would ordinarily go on a print, and thus cannot be used for a married print.
Richard


Ouch - it is double perf (says 2R on package) - does this mean I'm stuck with magnetic or I have to go silent? There has to be some sound solution I don't know why Kodak would make a print stock that can't handle an audio track, but I'm told magnetic stripe projectors are hard to come by. All suggestions and comments still appreciated!
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#10 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 08:41 AM

Ouch - it is double perf (says 2R on package) - does this mean I'm stuck with magnetic or I have to go silent? There has to be some sound solution I don't know why Kodak would make a print stock that can't handle an audio track, but I'm told magnetic stripe projectors are hard to come by. All suggestions and comments still appreciated!


I believe if you have this stock and only that, you can't go with sound.
Use another stock, or blow up the 16mm to 35mm. I believe that many 16mm projectors using both magnetic and optical as a preference.
Dimitrios Koukas
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#11 David Gottlieb

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 09:06 AM

I believe if you have this stock and only that, you can't go with sound.
Use another stock, or blow up the 16mm to 35mm. I believe that many 16mm projectors using both magnetic and optical as a preference.
Dimitrios Koukas


Can you use magnetic stripe with double perf?

I didn't buy the print stock knowing I couldn't put a sound track on it: making a silent movie is kind of a bold move but it wasn't my intention - if I can't use sound can I film directly onto a reversal print stock (the 7399)? If I can't make copies with sound this would probably be the only useful extension of the stock for me; I'll probably have to find a different stock for making copies now.

Any tips for other print reversal stocks that can handle sound and whether you can shoot directly onto a reversal print film? Thanks!
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#12 David Gottlieb

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 10:38 AM

Can you use magnetic stripe with double perf?

Any tips for other print reversal stocks that can handle sound and whether you can shoot directly onto a reversal print film? Thanks!


I'm setting up a new post for this question it's a little too buried - the magnetic question I still have no answer to so anyone who knows if you can do double-perf magnetic sound 16mm reversal would help a lot! Thanks
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#13 Chris Keth

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 10:40 AM

Can you use magnetic stripe with double perf?

I didn't buy the print stock knowing I couldn't put a sound track on it: making a silent movie is kind of a bold move but it wasn't my intention - if I can't use sound can I film directly onto a reversal print stock (the 7399)? If I can't make copies with sound this would probably be the only useful extension of the stock for me; I'll probably have to find a different stock for making copies now.

Any tips for other print reversal stocks that can handle sound and whether you can shoot directly onto a reversal print film? Thanks!



I wouldn't shoot directly to print stock, it's much, MUCH slower than camera stock and would be pretty rough to light. Why are you so bent on having sound on the film itself? Very few projectors can take magnetic sound anymore anyway. You would really be better off recording separate sync sound to a DAT (or a nagra if you want to be oldschool about it) and get it transferred to video for editing? Or alternately, edit on a flatbed, cut your negs and sound, send both to a lab to have prints made where, I assume, they would be able to transfer your sound edit to an optical track on the prints.
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#14 David Gottlieb

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 11:15 AM

I wouldn't shoot directly to print stock, it's much, MUCH slower than camera stock and would be pretty rough to light. Why are you so bent on having sound on the film itself? Very few projectors can take magnetic sound anymore anyway. You would really be better off recording separate sync sound to a DAT (or a nagra if you want to be oldschool about it) and get it transferred to video for editing? Or alternately, edit on a flatbed, cut your negs and sound, send both to a lab to have prints made where, I assume, they would be able to transfer your sound edit to an optical track on the prints.


All the sound will be done post on my computer I was wondering how to get sound onto the print film so I could potentially travel the festival circuit route, but as mentioned earlier the second perf supposedly makes it impossible to add an optical. I don't know any methods of projecting the film while running an audio reel separately but if you know of an alternative solution I'd be glad to hear it: I'm not dedicated to a single method, I just want a usable final product with sound that I could project. all the sound will be digitally done before I give it to a lab; I'm saying this in regard to the prints. ANY tips and suggestions appreciated and I started a second thread concerning shooting on reversal, but what do you mean by 'rough to light', and do you you have any specific examples? I know it's very low ASA but I have no experience shooting print and all my knowledge of it is from earlier boards, so I'll take ANY piece of advice right now.
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#15 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:47 PM

Kodak discontinued manufacture of pre-striped films over a decade ago, so any film you have will likely be so old that it will not yield good quality images.

The presence of the magnetic stripe is also likely to have some adverse effects with aging. For example, magnetic oxide has been found to accelerate "vinegar syndrome", especially if the film was stored improperly. I would work with your lab to run a processing test to be sure the stripe was still well-adhered to the film.

AFAIK, for 16mm camera films, only film perforated 1R was striped.

I would suggest testing some film through the camera(s) you intend to use, to be sure the striped area is not abraded or damaged by the camera.

Once you have sound recorded on the stripe (in camera or post-recording sounding), be careful to not subject the film to magnetic fields, or equipment that has not been properly degaussed.
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#16 Laurent Andrieux

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 01:57 PM

AFAIK, for 16mm camera films, only film perforated 1R was striped.


I second that, otherwise, where could that track be, but where the positive sound track has to be ?

If the stock is supposed to be that old, ask the lab to do a sensitometric curve !

The result can be funny even if old. If you're lucky, the sensitivity will only be lower and the fog level upper. If you're not (though it may become even more interesting...) you may have color shift...
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#17 Robert Hughes

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 02:34 PM

But all films eventually get to the point where the base fog level is higher than you can use. I've developed some old color negative stock that came out - brown - you could hardly make out any image. Handy for those Willy Wonka camera immersion in chocolate scenes, but anywhere else?
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#18 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 10:11 PM

All the sound will be done post on my computer I was wondering how to get sound onto the print film so I could potentially travel the festival circuit route, but as mentioned earlier the second perf supposedly makes it impossible to add an optical. ___Actually any single system sound track_____


I don't know any methods of projecting the film while running an audio reel separately but if you know of an alternative solution I'd be glad to hear it: I'm not dedicated to a single method, I just want a usable final product with sound that I could project. all the sound will be digitally done before I give it to a lab; I'm saying this in regard to the prints.



I think you have become another e-bay victim.. Sounds like you have paid to receive at least 50 pounds of film that is Possibly only good to use as leader.

Lets go back to the begining of 16mm. Originaly a Home Movie format, it was silent and had two rows of perforations, a lot of cameras, like the devry, Many Keystones and early Filmos, took advantage of that and used both row of perforations.

RCA and others decided that you could also do them new-fangled talking pictures on 16mm, so they dropped one row of pwerferations and put an optical sound track there. The format was hevely used to educate folks, and was a standard method of training in WWII.

TV news started to use 16mm, and the Auricon came out with a means of recording optical sound, right at the time of shooting, but it really needed about a 3-4 person crew, and TV staions only had 2 person crews (camera and reporter) SO someone got the idea to make MAgnetic stripe film. Their was a stripe applied to the back of the film, and a location was selected so that the magnetic head could co-exist with the optical sound head.

Traditionaly when making "release prints" in 16mm, Your lab will make up a master OPTICAL soundtrack, and they gets printed on the edge of the film. as a separte pass in the printer, but matched so the soundtrack starts in the right place, you may have to provide a "beep" a 24th of a second long, at a specified point in your tarck so that the lab tech can match it with a mark on the leader.

With the competion for Digital for Tv these days, some folks find that conventional 35MM production is costly, so they have stated to do "Super 16" which uses the area that used to hold the soundtrack as Picture area. Theyhave to change some roller at the lab to accomidate this is often the old machines used the gap between the picture and sound as a "safety zone" to have rollers touch the film, this does not work for Super 16. Note also that their is NO sound on super 16.

Screening room projectors have an attchment that can play magnetic film, in sync with a print, they often are modified to play a super 16 print, with the sound on separte media. I guess they can handle a computer sound file also..


SO much for background. You have mag stripe film, it is OLD, but it may be useable (or not) It has a stripe where a super 16 picture goes so you are limited to the normal 16mm area (3X4) You have some reversal print stock which is doubble perf. I understand that that was quite common in editing.

Your lab may not be keen on using your print stock to print your project,as they probaly have their own procedures and don't want ot test a bunch of stock.

I also undersatnd that the reveral print method is now a thing of the past, as so the labs will most likly want to make a copy negative, and a soundtrack negative, and print them both on ECP or the Fuji equivelent.

Sorry to go on with the "history as I understand it" but hopefully this will get you more of less in Sync, if you willpardon teh pun.
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