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one-shot that is also day and also night


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#1 Oron Cohen

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:08 PM

Hi evryone

We are planning to shoot a 20min short, in the movie there is a 1 minute one- shot of a man face in medium close-up in the desert. What we want to do as a starting point is to shoot in the "magic".
In the beginning of the shot we want to create the effect of sunset on the man face, and plan doing so with tungsten light the thing is we don?t know what size of light to use and if we need to add some gel to it?
after the sunset (the light tern-off), we want to try to make day- for night by changing the f-stop while we are still running and under exposes by 2 to 2 and a half stop and in the same time to open up a back-rim light moon light with maybe a 2.5K HMI , then we again start to pull down the HMI, and start to open up the F-stop and open up the tungsten light as if there is sunrise.
and now the real question is what you the professional thinking about our plan?

Hope for comments


Oron Cohen
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#2 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 01:13 PM

Hi evryone

We are planning to shoot a 20min short, in the movie there is a 1 minute one- shot of a man face in medium close-up in the desert. What we want to do as a starting point is to shoot in the "magic".
In the beginning of the shot we want to create the effect of sunset on the man face, and plan doing so with tungsten light the thing is we don?t know what size of light to use and if we need to add some gel to it?
after the sunset (the light tern-off), we want to try to make day- for night by changing the f-stop while we are still running and under exposes by 2 to 2 and a half stop and in the same time to open up a back-rim light moon light with maybe a 2.5K HMI , then we again start to pull down the HMI, and start to open up the F-stop and open up the tungsten light as if there is sunrise.
and now the real question is what you the professional thinking about our plan?

Hope for comments
Oron Cohen


Oron,
very nice thought, what is the film stock that u are planning to use?
Do you want the shot to be done in one day, or u have cut-aways that can help you continue the next day?

Is the background the horizon that fades?Or just a sand hill?
Sorry for all this questions , I just feel that I need the details.
Dimitrios Koukas
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#3 Joseph White

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 01:56 PM

sounds like an interesting shot - mr. koukas is right in asking what stock you're shooting as this all would depend on such a decision. i'd reccomend maybe shooting 5218 or 5229 as they will handle the underexposure you're talking about well.

also - what are you thinking in terms of your going "up and down" on your HMI? you obviously can't dim them - are you thinking of just panning the unit on and off the subject or perhaps opening up on a flag or using louvres? if you want a dim up dim down effect it might behoove you to use all tungsten units and just use a 10k with a dimmer w/ full blue on it as your moonlight - eats more power, and remember your color temperature changes when you dim - but it might be a neat effect.

i like amber or straw gels for a magic hour effect, but its all a matter of personal preference.

sounds awesome though - happy shooting!
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#4 Oron Cohen

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 02:46 PM

Oron,
very nice thought, what is the film stock that u are planning to use?
Do you want the shot to be done in one day, or u have cut-aways that can help you continue the next day?

Is the background the horizon that fades?Or just a sand hill?
Sorry for all this questions , I just feel that I need the details.
Dimitrios Koukas


the stock will probably be 7218 500T. we want to shot in one day. the backround will be big mountains(Judha mountains neer Jerusalem).
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#5 Oron Cohen

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 02:58 PM

sounds like an interesting shot - mr. koukas is right in asking what stock you're shooting as this all would depend on such a decision. i'd reccomend maybe shooting 5218 or 5229 as they will handle the underexposure you're talking about well.

also - what are you thinking in terms of your going "up and down" on your HMI? you obviously can't dim them - are you thinking of just panning the unit on and off the subject or perhaps opening up on a flag or using louvres? if you want a dim up dim down effect it might behoove you to use all tungsten units and just use a 10k with a dimmer w/ full blue on it as your moonlight - eats more power, and remember your color temperature changes when you dim - but it might be a neat effect.

i like amber or straw gels for a magic hour effect, but its all a matter of personal preference.

sounds awesome though - happy shooting!


We thinking about using 7218 500T film, we are low on budget and we trying to find out how much light do we really need to do the sunset and the sunrise after all the size of the frame is medium close up, and we hope that a 2k frsnel or a 2K open face should do the job, what size of units do you think will be sufficient to make it look good. For the HMI we thought that we pull them up and down, down when the moon is going in and up when it?s out. Your 10K thought is interesting but not for our low budget limit.
Hope it will help to give us more good advise,

Thanks allot

Oron.
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#6 Thomas Cousin

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 03:03 PM

hi !
in order to dim down your HMI source, you can use a shutter remotely controled. just like huge venetian blinds in front of the source that you close slowly to reducce the amount of light. so you can adjust the amount of light without changing your colour temperature.
for the sunset effect, one thing i've never tried yet but read about is shooting in exterior with daylight stock (or tungsten stock with 85) and use big tungsten source to simulate the warmer light of low sun. vittorio storaro seemed to use it a lot this technique. dinos in daylight to simulate late late afternoon. it's nice and golden.
you have a 3200°k source that is beautifully warm. you even get lower adding 1/4 cto or 1/2 cto or more.the sun goes to 2000°k when it's very low. CTS too seems a nice idea. and amber, light amber also. another one idea maybe : you can add a slight touch of purple, or magenta, or pink to the warm light to create a more golden-purple very low sun effect.
and as for the size of the source, prefer someone big to 'mimic' the power of the sun. maxibrutes, or 10 K or 20 K that you can put a little far.
i forgot something , you can dim down the thungsten sources to make them warmer of course.

bye

thomas

Edited by Thomas Cousin, 10 October 2005 - 03:10 PM.

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#7 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 03:12 PM

the stock will probably be 7218 500T. we want to shot in one day. the backround will be big mountains(Judha mountains neer Jerusalem).


Thanks,
Well, you will need colour gels for the sunset effect ,If I was there I would be probably using some amber gels like the 134 or full CTO, I have done a sunset effect on a commercial and was just having the electricians move the light verticaly downwards on the tripod (not tilting it), till was out.
I suppose u have to do the opposite with the HMI.But maybe you will need something smaller as a backlight,if you have space to move closer to the actor. If you use an Hmi, then flag it out and gradiently let it light the actor.
I just have the feelling here that you will have difficulties with the mountain, that isn't going to be dark soon enough as your foreground will be.

Dimitrios Koukas
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#8 Thomas Cousin

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 03:20 PM

hello again,
i saw your new posts after finishing mine.
ok so if the 10k and 20k are too 'heavy'.
maybe you may still consider maxibrutes, or even a fresnel 5K. i think it may still be affordable. but you have to shoot very late in the day to have a true effect with the 5K
the quality of the light with a 2K open face would be a problem for me for this kind of effect.a fresnel lens will add value and quality to your light. don't remember you're trying to 'redo' the sun, and it's a wonderful beautiful light in tone and quality.
enjoy !
i envy you making such ambitious and nice shots. shots that play with the light and mood like this are a great thing to achieve.
good luck !

thomas
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#9 Daniel Kedem

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 05:32 PM

Oron,

Just an idea, but I keep thinking about the background. Will changing the apreture be enough to make the effect? will it be smooth enough? what about the way the light hits the hills in the background?
What if you do this in time lapse? really utilizing the sunset and sunrise. I don't know what lens and aspect ratio you're planning on shooting at , but the Judean desert is such an amazing place, with incredible sunsets/sunrises, why not let it show for what it is?

As I said, just an idea... not necesserily very realistic. Anyway, good luck and let us know how it came out.

P.S. assuming you don't have the money to do tests, I would consider at least testing with stills (be it 35mm or digital) and smaller units, to see if this is what you're looking for.
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#10 dbledwn11

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 06:48 PM

depending on the lense i would of also thought that a change in aperture to accomodate for the diminishing light might affect your depth of field, particulalrly since the background will be far away. like i've said in other posts i could be wrong (dimitrios knows what i'm talkin about!). feel free to correct:-)
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#11 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 01:37 AM

depending on the lense i would of also thought that a change in aperture to accomodate for the diminishing light might affect your depth of field, particulalrly since the background will be far away. like i've said in other posts i could be wrong (dimitrios knows what i'm talkin about!). feel free to correct:-)

I am not sure, if I know about what you are talkin about, but changing the aperture by 2 f/stops maybe it won't change the DOF so much that u will reach the Hyperfocal distance of the lens, to have the mountains in focus.
But all this are just assumptions, we do not know the background and we don't know the lens, aslo the distance between the subject to the lens and the background.
We all imagine a shot with a man and a mountain.Different people, different POV.
Dimitrios Koukas
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#12 dbledwn11

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 12:35 PM

I am not sure, if I know about what you are talkin about, but changing the aperture by 2 f/stops maybe it won't change the DOF so much that u will reach the Hyperfocal distance of the lens, to have the mountains in focus.
But all this are just assumptions, we do not know the background and we don't know the lens, aslo the distance between the subject to the lens and the background.
We all imagine a shot with a man and a mountain.Different people, different POV.
Dimitrios Koukas


i had a sneaking suspicion you wouldn't know what i was talkin about - nevermind.
it was only a hypothetical considertion, which i thought might be worth pointing out given that the exact circumstances are difficult to know, as you rightly point out. (why do i always feel like apologising for my comments:-)
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#13 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 02:31 AM

i had a sneaking suspicion you wouldn't know what i was talkin about - nevermind.
it was only a hypothetical considertion, which i thought might be worth pointing out given that the exact circumstances are difficult to know, as you rightly point out. (why do i always feel like apologising for my comments:-)


There is no need to apologise about your comments, if we don't know what Oron is trying to have into frame.
And I didn't write that ''I don't know what are you talking about''.Did I?
:)
Dimitrios Koukas
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