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Negative cutting techniques


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#1 Steven Budden

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:53 PM

Hola,

I have a few questions about printing a release print from negative. Can I turn the negative around and resplice it into a shot to reverse the picture? Will the width of the film plane effect focus? I'm trying to do it so a figure is on one side of the screen, and then on the other side (picture reversed) and then back again. It works in the work print but I'm just double checking?

Also, what is the best way to combine reversal and negative (black and white)? Splice an internegative in with the negative? What about using negative originated footage in a predominantly reversal short?

And I've checked with a few but do most labs for reversal printing take tape splices or does it just depend on the lab?

This is an experimental film, edited on rewinds and viewer.

Thanks!

Steven
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#2 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:12 PM

B)-->
QUOTE(Steven B @ Oct 26 2005, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hola,


And I've checked with a few but do most labs for reversal printing take tape splices or does it just depend on the lab?


Steven
[/quote]

---The adhesive on tape splices is soluble in liquid gate printing fluid.
& tape splices will stretch after a few passes.

Flopping the film will make for a slightly softer print, but not grossly out of focus.
Emulsion on the base side is more likely to get scratched in handling.

---LV
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#3 Dominic Case

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 10:14 PM

If you flop the negative over, you will get a softer print image.

What guage is this? I presume it is standard 16mm shot on double perf negative. Super 16, and 35mm, will obviously result in a sideways repositioning, and some cropping on one side, as the image isn't central. Even standard 16 on single perf will be a problem, as the printer will reperforate the negative :( not a pretty sight.

If you want to cut reversal shots in with original negative, you will need to order a B-type (or B-wind) interneg of the reversal shots. A regular contact dupe would be A-type - in other words, a mirror reversal of the original image - unless you then spliced it into the negative flopped over, with the ensuing lack of contact and soft result in the final print.
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#4 Steven Budden

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 04:39 PM

Thanks.

I did notice a little softness in the image when i flipped them. Darn.

Also, how will the tape stretching effect the print? I was afraid it might jump or something as it does in my projector. For printing reversal I suppose I should splice each side? Because I'm editing original reversal and then making a few release prints.

So there is no way to splice reversal into a negative film the same way as it was originally shot without flipping the internegative? Is this negative flipping a common practice?

What about documentary filmmakers who end up with some negative and some reversal footage? The reversal footage is always shown backwards?

It is regular double perf 16mm.

Thanks!

Steven

PS. What projector will take splices better than my Bell and howell autoload filmosound thing? It jumps on every tape splice.
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#5 Dominic Case

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 06:36 PM

If you use tape to splice negative, it will show up in the print as a lot of white mess and lines at the edges of the tape - that's quite apart from the issues of tape stretching, which will result in a jumping image at the splice.

Normally 16mm negative is joined with hot (cement) splices, in A&B rolls.

Documentary makers and others who want to insert reversal material get a dupe neg made: if they need B-type, the lab would use an optical printer which can give you a focussed image witheither geometry.
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#6 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 07:51 PM

B)-->
QUOTE(Steven B @ Oct 27 2005, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Also, how will the tape stretching effect the print? I was afraid it might jump or something as it does in my projector. For printing reversal I suppose I should splice each side? Because I'm editing original reversal and then making a few release prints.

So there is no way to splice reversal into a negative film the same way as it was originally shot without flipping the internegative? Is this negative flipping a common practice?

[/quote]
OK I ma now lost...

Are you talking about A) combining shots on Reversal (Positive) Film with shots taken on NEGATIVE film, all intending to end up as a positive?

If so you would make an internegative of your positive shots, or an intermediate positive from your negative shots. and poabaly have to make the insert an extra roll for a/b printing. You may have to do an opical to get the emuslsion on the right side to splice then together.

As Dominic posted the negative way is probaly more popular and also probaly has an edge on quiality.

If you are talking about left to right reversal of a shot, then you might get away with the slight blur of having the emulsion away from the print. Having this down as an optical would also give better quality.

About the only one you can probaly get away with is the old trick of using 2R film and holding the camera upside down, then the ends can be switched and the action will be backwards.


Worst case with the tapes for you is they move enough that the printer sproket starts making new perfs in your original film. WOrst forthe alb is the film comes apart, and they have to dismatle the Liquid gate and throw away the fluid to clean up the mess.
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#7 Steven Budden

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 06:40 PM

Thanks for the advice.

Since I'm handprocessing in a daylight tank workprint is a huge expense, so I'm trying to get away with using the reversal original. But as it stands I have a lot of neg and reversal b and white footage I'm trying to put together into something.

I was flipping the neg not to reverse the image alone but for effect... the jitter of switching back and forth. Seems to work for that alright.


Thanks!

Steven
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#8 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 10:18 AM

Another serious issue with tape splices in a cut original is that the cleaning solvents normally used by labs to clean printing originals or films for telecine transfer will dissolve the adhesives used on the splicing tape. The adhesives could ooze and transfer to adjacent convolutions of film, or the splices will eventually weaken.
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#9 Sam Wells

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 10:03 AM

It's still not clear to me, are you using the negative to get a *negative* image on your B&W (?) print ?

Or are you trying to end up with positive ("correct") images from both Rev and Neg sources ?

-Sam
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