Jump to content


Photo

Good Deal for 16mm Camera?


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 Gino Terribilini

Gino Terribilini
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 75 posts
  • Student
  • Long Beach, CA

Posted 28 October 2005 - 10:14 PM

Not sure if this should go here or in Classifieds, but I was wondering if i'm getting ripped off or not for this set. $3200 plus shipping.

80_3.JPG


  • 0

#2 Mitch Gross

Mitch Gross
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2873 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 28 October 2005 - 10:21 PM

Assuming that everything is in good shape then that is an acceptable but perhaps a little high price. Personally I wouldn't spend that kind of money on an MOS camera.
  • 0

#3 Gino Terribilini

Gino Terribilini
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 75 posts
  • Student
  • Long Beach, CA

Posted 28 October 2005 - 10:30 PM

Oh.. and the camera has a crystal sync motor.
  • 0

#4 Mitch Gross

Mitch Gross
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2873 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 28 October 2005 - 10:55 PM

Then that does help the price value, but I'd still rather have a sync sound camera. For that kind of money you could be looking at an Eclair NPR, a CP-16R, and Arri BL or an Eclair ACL. I'd rather have any of them over an Arri-S.
  • 0

#5 Fran Kuhn

Fran Kuhn
  • Sustaining Members
  • 352 posts
  • Other

Posted 29 October 2005 - 02:02 AM

Not sure if this should go here or in Classifieds, but I was wondering if i'm getting ripped off or not for this set. $3200 plus shipping.

80_3.JPG


I went looking for an Arri S/B about five years ago and learned a lot about buying one of these cameras. I didn't know too much about these things, so when I saw a nice-looking complete S/B kit being sold by a big east coast rental house on eBay I sent my $4500 check and waited like a kid at Christmas.

When the camera arrived I noticed a few things like how sloppy the lens? focusing and aperture rings seemed to be. And the mold growing on the interior elements. And, oh yeah, the rust and oxidation that seemed to be everywhere inside the camera body and magazines, like they had fallen into Boston Harbor and been left there for a week. I was really shocked?after all, everything had looked so good in the lo-res eBay photos. I wasn?t sure how to deal with this situation so I found the number of Clairmont Camera in Hollywood an off it went for a second opinion. Turns out it was a real pile; just about everything was worn out of spec and in need of major service. It went right back in the box and down to FedEx.

A month later, I managed to find a very high serial number S/B that was owned by a doctor who bought it in the early 80s. The camera was in its original case and in essentially brand-new condition. Some of the accessories and 400-foot mags were still wrapped in the original, unopened plastic bags they were shipped in from the factory. The doctor had shot 200 feet of film, lost interest and simply packed the thing away.

Now, as good as this camera looked on the outside, it was kind of like finding a 1965 Ford Mustang parked in a garage with 50 miles on the odometer. It would be crazy to drive the thing before having a complete oil-and-lube, so the first thing I did with my lo-mile Arri was send it off to a gentleman named Axel Broda, the God of Arriflex techs in these parts. Even though the camera was in spotless condition, I asked Mr. Broda to give it a full going-over. It was a good thing I did, because after 20-plus years, the original factory lubricants in the body, mags and both motors had dried considerably. And I've got news for you; the complete and factory-correct service is expensive. In my case it was somewhere around $900-plus as I recall, most of it in billable hours for the disassembly/assembly work. This included the body, two camera motors, two 400-foot mags and a magazine motor.

Axel explained that most ?techs? these days do not disassemble these cameras to access the critical internal components but simply squirt some oil in the easy-to-get-at places and then charge you $250. And I believe him. After all, these cameras, once used almost exclusively by professionals, are now more often than not being used by first timers on tight budgets; the service market has evolved (or devolved) accordingly. I think Axel said the factory flat-rate service allowance is something on the order of eight hours for an S/B body.

Mr. Broda also pointed out some other interesting trivia. Apparently, these cameras should never be stored with the motors in place, even though they almost always are. Doing so stretches the rubber drive cup inside the body to the point where it will crack and ultimately cause the motor drive ball to slip in the cup. As he explained, there's a reason Arri designed the Factory-original camera case so the body cannot be stored in it without first removing the motor. Also, beware of 12-volt upgrades that don't use either the factory 12-volt motor (quite a rare beast) or some purpose-built 12-volt aftermarket motor. The standard 8.3-volt motors are living on borrowed time when used with a 12-volt power supply, something the salesman conveniently won?t mention.

Anyway, check carefully with the seller and be sure to get service records. If he?s got them, that is. It?s quite possible the thing hasn?t seen a test bench since before Nixon resigned. My understanding is that the Arri S/Bs are exceptionally tough cameras and if the one you?re interested in hasn't been properly serviced, it doesn't necessarily mean trouble, but keep those service costs in mind and bid accordingly.
  • 0

#6 David Sweetman

David Sweetman
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 757 posts
  • Student

Posted 29 October 2005 - 03:58 AM

what kind of lenses did it come with? It looks like there's a few...this along with the crystal sync might justify the price, though i think it's high. Anyway you ought to ask these questions before you purchase.
  • 0

#7 Laurent Andrieux

Laurent Andrieux
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1527 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • France

Posted 29 October 2005 - 07:45 AM

I also see a light meter... what model is it ?

You should ask/check that the magazine motors work (otherwise you won't be able to use them with 400 ft loads)

There is a zoom that looks like being an Angénieux 12-120. If it's in a good state, it may justify the price.

But as someone mentioned, not sure it's the horse to bid on, regular 16 is totally out of date...
  • 0

#8 Andy Sparaco SOC

Andy Sparaco SOC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 203 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Chicago and most airline lounges

Posted 29 October 2005 - 08:48 AM

The Arri-S is wonderful camera unfortunately Arriflex does not have parts for them. They barely have parts for the Arri-SR 1 and 2.

If it has not been used regularly it will have to be cleaned and lubed or you will grind up the movement.

What usually happens is a young enthusiastic filmmaker buys one then dicovers it is not so easy to use and really expensive to shoot and then turns around and sells it. So it may go thru many hands without any basic maintenance.

If the seller is the exception and has had the camera recently serviced it might be worth it.

Does the camera have one Stainless steel Bay mount? The more recent cameras had at least one Arri Bay mount which gave you a rigid backfocus. You should assume that the three Fixed focus lenses will have sloopy back focus and image shift in general because the Arri Standard mount is esentially a hole in aluminium with a locking lever. The lens and the mount get worn and there is lots of movement in all planes.

The Bay Arri-S turrent can sometimes be found used.

You need to have a repair "connection" to keep these cameras working. All of the repair people have retired or are dead.

The Arri BL another great camera is worse then the Arri-S regarding parts.

Off all of the older used cameras the Eclair NPR is most repairable because it is very simple. For 3200USD you can get a nice NPR which can be updated cost effectively to Super 16 amd modern lens mounts like "PL" or cannon or nikon

Motion picture cameras are the technological children of sewing machines
  • 0

#9 Sol Train Saihati

Sol Train Saihati
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 96 posts
  • Gaffer
  • London

Posted 29 October 2005 - 01:03 PM

I agree with almost all of the above. If you have the opportunity, try and get a look a the camera in person, maybe even shoot a few hundred feet of film with in. Spend a while running some gash stock through it to check for speed consistency and to see if it doesn't straight up eat the stock!

If you have the means, you could also spend a few hours running some clean, exposed print stock through it over and over again, then project that same stock onto a on a big screen. It's a great way to check for scratch damage and how much general wear and tear goes through on the film. If you're spending money on the camera, you have the right to put it through some pretty rigorous test procedures, so don't feel as though you're not in a position to ask.

A recent service history is also a Brucie Bonus. :blink: They are absolutely great cameras... Good Luck!
  • 0

#10 Gino Terribilini

Gino Terribilini
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 75 posts
  • Student
  • Long Beach, CA

Posted 31 October 2005 - 01:42 AM

You can view the original auction and specs HERE.

If the camera works as well as it looks, I'm willing to pay the extra $$. I just hope it does....
  • 0

#11 Laurent Andrieux

Laurent Andrieux
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1527 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • France

Posted 31 October 2005 - 05:18 AM

It is an Angenieux 12-120 and a Sekonic light meter... plus Schneider optics... if they are in good shapeit may be worth it...

I've got a list of Schneider optics in st mount BTW... Anybody interested ?
  • 0

#12 Robert Glenn

Robert Glenn
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 247 posts
  • Other

Posted 31 October 2005 - 06:46 AM

how much is a super16 convert for an arri S?
Have you seen this listing? ACL_II
  • 0

#13 Tim Carroll

Tim Carroll
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2165 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago, Illinois

Posted 31 October 2005 - 08:34 AM

What is the deal with that camera, the auction you refer to from last week says that nobody bought the camera. Now the same package is listed again on ebay, with someone else selling it. Did you buy it and are you reselling it, or is the whole thing some kind of scam?

-Tim
  • 0

#14 Andy Sparaco SOC

Andy Sparaco SOC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 203 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Chicago and most airline lounges

Posted 31 October 2005 - 10:13 AM

how much is a super16 convert for an arri S?
Have you seen this listing? ACL_II




My conversion was a "continuing work in progress" for 18 months or longer. There are nuances to the conversion you discover after the fact which require attention. If the vendor does not have a track record doing the camera conversion you will have a nightmare on your hands. The cost escalates as each time you have to disassemble the camera to resolve this or that problem.

To get someone that is legit to do it (they have done it before) you will spend 3 to 5K plus the cost of the camera. For that $$ you can get a nice NPR or even a Aaton LTR which may need a little affection($$$)

Would I do the conversion again -nope. Am I glad to have the conversion yes. because it fills a specific role in the way I shoot. As a "B" Camera which uses all of the SR PL mount lenses and accessories I have, as a technical camera for shooting plates and Efx's with. As a camera for use with lite-weight motion stablizers. As a camera I can give a "camera happy" director to putter around with. As a "hold out cam" to shoot when less then legal.
  • 0

#15 Gino Terribilini

Gino Terribilini
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 75 posts
  • Student
  • Long Beach, CA

Posted 31 October 2005 - 01:09 PM

What is the deal with that camera, the auction you refer to from last week says that nobody bought the camera. Now the same package is listed again on ebay, with someone else selling it. Did you buy it and are you reselling it, or is the whole thing some kind of scam?


Its not a scam.. the auction went all the way through without any bids. I contacted before the auction ended and told him I wanted the package, but didn't have the money at that moment, so he told me if there were no bids, he would sell it to me. We're still going to go through PayPal and everything- scammers will usually use high-end consumer video cameras for their scam and they're usually from eastern Europe or something.. not Canada. Everybody in Canada is honest and trustworthy... right? ;) Anyway, that's the deal with that. I talked him down to $3200 USD from the original $4000 CAD. Not a huge drop, but every little bit counts.

how much is a super16 convert for an arri S?


I got one quote for $2500 USD from an Australian company. Another said they don't do it anymore because it cost about $5000 USD. I probably wont do it just because I don't plan on being a student filmmaker forever. Nor do I want to be a cinematographer (yet...). I just want to make movies.

Edited by Gino Terribilini, 31 October 2005 - 01:13 PM.

  • 0

#16 Tim Carroll

Tim Carroll
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2165 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago, Illinois

Posted 31 October 2005 - 03:56 PM

Its not a scam.. the auction went all the way through without any bids. I contacted before the auction ended and told him I wanted the package, but didn't have the money at that moment, so he told me if there were no bids, he would sell it to me. We're still going to go through PayPal and everything- scammers will usually use high-end consumer video cameras for their scam and they're usually from eastern Europe or something.. not Canada. Everybody in Canada is honest and trustworthy... right? ;) Anyway, that's the deal with that. I talked him down to $3200 USD from the original $4000 CAD. Not a huge drop, but every little bit counts.


You missed my point, what I am saying is the exact same camera package is being auctioned right now on ebay, same pictures, same description. This time the person is claiming to be from Hillard Ohio. You can see the auction below:

Auction for the same camera!

The auction you bought the camera from is here:

Same package, same pictures, same description!

I thought maybe you had decided to sell the camera already, then I realized you are in Southern California, not Ohio, so I was wondering if the original auction was a scam, or if the current auction might be? Have you received the camera from the person in Canada yet?

-Tim
  • 0

#17 Matt Pacini

Matt Pacini
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1246 posts

Posted 31 October 2005 - 05:52 PM

My two cents...

1. Just because there are many scammers in Asian & Eastern European countries, does not mean that those are the only people running scams on people.
I have gotten ebay scammed from people in the US and Canada, and I've done many good deals with people in Asia & Eastern Europe.
Not "everybody" is nice anywhere...
The fact that you made an offer off ebay, means that if you are scammed, ebay will do nothing whatsoever (not that they would do much anyway... same goes for PayPal, who let me get scammed and would do nothing, not even give me enough info to help me prosecute the guy on my own.)


2. The Angieiuex 12-120 is an average, low-cost lens. It certainly does nothing to enhance the package you bid on.
I sold mine for $167 and was happy to get that much for it.

MP
  • 0


Metropolis Post

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Wooden Camera

Paralinx LLC

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Willys Widgets

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Glidecam

FJS International, LLC

Rig Wheels Passport

Technodolly

rebotnix Technologies

Ritter Battery

CineTape

The Slider

Aerial Filmworks

Abel Cine

CineLab

Visual Products

Opal

Tai Audio

The Slider

Willys Widgets

Paralinx LLC

rebotnix Technologies

Visual Products

Broadcast Solutions Inc

FJS International, LLC

Rig Wheels Passport

Technodolly

Ritter Battery

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Wooden Camera

Glidecam

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Metropolis Post

Tai Audio

CineLab

CineTape

Opal

Abel Cine

Aerial Filmworks