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S8 Kodachrome on 16mm


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#1 Fulgencio Martinez

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 09:33 AM

Hi,
I´ll be shooting and advertising whre the director want the clasical s8 look. that´s kodachrome.
As it has been discontinued and because shooting s8 would mean sending to france or germany develope and telecine i thought doing 16mm would be more controlable.
i though about 16mm maybe fuji 250 underexposed by one or two stops to saturate color and increase grain and contrast.
and old lens (maybe angenieux 12-120)
and some post to get the final look.
At the end we will need a digi beta copy.
i´d love to know your thoughts about this process.
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#2 Laurent Andrieux

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 09:41 AM

Why not use reversal stock ?
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#3 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 10:00 AM

Hi,
I´ll be shooting and advertising whre the director want the clasical s8 look. that´s kodachrome.
As it has been discontinued and because shooting s8 would mean sending to france or germany develope and telecine i thought doing 16mm would be more controlable.
i though about 16mm maybe fuji 250 underexposed by one or two stops to saturate color and increase grain and contrast.
and old lens (maybe angenieux 12-120)
and some post to get the final look.
At the end we will need a digi beta copy.
i´d love to know your thoughts about this process.


Consider using 7285:

http://www.kodak.com...1.4.4.6.4&lc=en

Or Super-8 7280:

http://www.kodak.com...s8mm/7280.jhtml

If you don't have local access to an E-6 lab, consider shooting 7218 with some overexposure to increase color saturation, yet get the higher grain levels to simulate a Super-8 look.

Underexposure on a negative film will decrease color saturation and reduce contrast and shadow detail.
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#4 A.Oliver

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 10:21 AM

Not impressed with your reply John, think you have overlooked 16mm k40 in your reply. Still available and its kodachrome. Also i beleive there are still stocks of super 8 k40 available in the USA, Dwanes will process 8 and 16mm kodachrome.
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#5 Laurent Andrieux

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 10:42 AM

Underexposure on a negative film will decrease color saturation and reduce contrast and shadow detail.


By the way, John...

I'm so used to consider underexposition reduces contrast that in another thread I said push process would reduce contrast, though it's not true -thanks for having corrected actually -, as I was basically thinking of an underexposed shot...

My question is, does the increase of contrast, due to push process, compensate the loss due to underexposition, or not (keeping in mind you also explained that push process one stop doesn't mean a 1 stop gain in sensitivity, and therefoe, I guess, a 1 stop push process doesn't really compensate a 1 stop underexposition...) ?

I keep on thinking that a 1 stop underexposed neg, pushed one stop, is less contrast than if correctly exposed and normally process... Do you second that ?

May be the fact that usually, an underexposed neg has often poor highlights, play a part, what do you think ?
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#6 Fulgencio Martinez

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 12:44 PM

I had a mistake about under-over expose in my topic
Supose i use 7218 exposed at 320. this could give a god color sat and contrast but a very good grain, nearly invisible. I´m not looking for that.
Maybe exposing 700-800 asa but pushing 7218 two stop(to 2000asa) will be closer to a s8 k40 look.
How about fuji500T (not eterna) exposed at 500 pushed 1 stop?
I could do some post over the digibeta, but maybe not in the highest level of post station. Please tell me about this two aproaches to s8 k40 look.


- i live in Spain so not reversal processing is available. Reversal film is only available as s8 ektachrome and is developed outside the country.
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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 12:48 PM

If this is for telecine only, you could frame for and then zoom into the image in the telecine so that you are only using a Super-8 area of the 16mm frame. You'd want to use wider-angle lenses to compensate for the cropping.

As for getting a Kodachrome look, either shoot Kodachrome, or try Ektachrome 100D as John says with the aforementioned cropping technique.

You could try pushing a color neg and boosting the chroma in post as a last resort. You could even first print the color neg onto color print stock to get reversal's contrast, and then transfer the print.
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#8 Fulgencio Martinez

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 01:05 PM

Hi david,
It seems you were writting your post as i was posting my reply. I´d like to know what you think about the methods i suggest
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#9 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 01:12 PM

Instead of 500 ASA stock, I'd use a slow-speed color neg stock, maybe underexposed and pushed, with some saturation and crop & zoom into it to get the Super-8 grain. Like use 7245 pushed one stop to 100 ASA, or two stops to 200 ASA. The crop & zoom of 16mm to a Super-8 area will give you the large-sized grains and softness.

But if you can't control the telecine transfer, then underexposing and pushing high-speed film will get you more grain. But this is something you really need to control in the telecine stage, to get this specific look. You can't just drop off the film to a transfer place and expect them to get it to look the way you want it to.
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#10 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 04:01 PM

Not impressed with your reply John, think you have overlooked 16mm k40 in your reply. Still available and its kodachrome. Also i beleive there are still stocks of super 8 k40 available in the USA, Dwanes will process 8 and 16mm kodachrome.


Fulgencio is not in the USA, and said they didn't want to send their film to France or Germany (or presumably Switzerland).
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#11 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 05:25 PM

Whats the time period, mood, scenario? There are many options in S-8 alone depending on where you are, many of which can look "too good for super 8" and still need to be dirtied up to meet expectations. The new 64T would be indistinguishable from kodachrome to the viewer. has more latatude (transfers much better) saturation, and grain. Or you can nail a variety of "desired" looks with S8 200T easier than 16mm. Hey I'll shoot it if somebody pays me.
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#12 A.Oliver

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 05:46 PM

Fulgencio is not in the USA, and said they didn't want to send their film to France or Germany (or presumably Switzerland).

John my apologies, 'i am sorry', I assumed the post originated in the US
Andy

Edited by k25rip, 02 November 2005 - 05:49 PM.

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#13 Fran Kuhn

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 12:44 AM

In addition to using a reversal stock and using only a Super 8-sized portion of the frame, I'd recommend using a camera with a variable shutter angle and setting it at 90 degrees to give it that authentic staccato Super 8 vibe.
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#14 Clive Tobin

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 03:03 PM

In addition to using a reversal stock and using only a Super 8-sized portion of the frame, I'd recommend using a camera with a variable shutter angle and setting it at 90 degrees to give it that authentic staccato Super 8 vibe.


I don't understand the logic behind this. Traditional super-8 cameras have 160-170 degree shutter openings and XL ones have 220 to 240 degrees. The frame rate should be about 18 however to get the same motion rendering.
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#15 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 03:17 PM

Why must everyone make this so much more difficult than it is?
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#16 A.Oliver

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 07:49 PM

just shoot super 8 k40 and ship to the US or Switzerland, we all have to ship either our k40 or 64t out of the country. Surely the simplist way is to shoot on kodachrome. For the classic kodachrome look, shoot some k25 double 8, stocks still available at http://www.wittner-k...mm/d8_filmm.php
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#17 Will Montgomery

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 01:00 PM

There are plenty of Europeans that use Dwayne's photo (www.k-14movies.com) for Kodachrome processing... and they do have 16mm stock available, as does Kodak in the US.

I would suggest ordering from Kodachrome from Dwayne's and having them process it. Seems like that's the simplest solution. Although any Kodak color reversal film will be close to the look you want and a little telecine tweaking will probably take you the rest of the way.

:)
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#18 Fran Kuhn

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 02:12 PM

I don't understand the logic behind this. Traditional super-8 cameras have 160-170 degree shutter openings and XL ones have 220 to 240 degrees. The frame rate should be about 18 however to get the same motion rendering.

Thanks for that info Clive.

Actually, I'm not really a S8 aficionado, but I know the small gauge film looks quite different when compared to the more graceful, flowing feel typically produced by 16mm or 35mm cameras. Also, My Beaulieu 4008 Zoom II may or may not have a 180-degree shutter, but I do know it has a 1/90th second duration. (At least that’s what the experts on these things have told me.) If so, it’s approximately half the duration of the typical 1/48th second exposure most 16mm and 35mm cameras produce, or roughly equal to what you'd get on a 90-degree shutter setting on one of those cameras.

You can clearly see the results of this short exposure time when panning with the Beaulieu. It looks, I don't know, kind of staccato or jumpy or something. Maybe it’s just me, but that jumpiness is a big part of the “home movies” vibe.

Interestingly, I found out about the 1/90th when I bought the camera, shot a test and the "normal" exposures came back about 1 stop underexposed. I had used a handheld meter to set the exposures, not the in-camera meter, which, of course, was trying to tell me I was underexposed. I just figured the in-camera meter was out of adjustment or something. I think the Beaulieu has one of those guillotine-type shutters, maybe that's got something to do with the 1/90th duration.

Anyway, 90- or 180-degree, it's all just an aesthetic thing. In any case, I believe a simple film test would be appropriate to see which one produces the desired result. By the way, I really like the 18-fps suggestion. Or just use a Super 8 camera as someone else posted here.

Edited by FKP-1, 04 November 2005 - 06:50 PM.

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#19 Patrick Cooper

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 05:37 AM

"The new 64T would be indistinguishable from kodachrome to the viewer."

Although Ive not shot any 64T myself, Ive read many reports that 64T has more visible grain than K40 in super 8. However, if there was some way of obtaining 64T in 16mm (and I don't think that's currently possible) then you may be able to get close to a super 8 K40 look that way...but you'd have to run a test first to really see what it really looks like.
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